Discussion:
U.S. Population to Hit 300 Million in 2006
(too old to reply)
arminius
2006-06-25 14:02:30 UTC
Permalink
June 25, 2006, 6:18 AM EDT
WASHINGTON -- The U.S. population is on target to hit 300 million this
fall and it's a good bet the milestone baby -- or immigrant -- will be
Hispanic.
No one will know for sure because the date and time will be just an
estimate.
But Latinos -- immigrants and those born in this country -- are driving
the population growth, accounting for almost half the increase last
year, more than any other ethnic or racial group.
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-300-million-milestone,0,2357445.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines

Population growth is lauded by sleazy business interests to include
developers, realtors, agribusiness, and all the greedy bastards who put a
profit ahead of the national interest.

Hank
Robert Kolker
2006-06-25 14:50:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by arminius
Population growth is lauded by sleazy business interests to include
developers, realtors, agribusiness, and all the greedy bastards who put a
profit ahead of the national interest.
Why is an increasing population that remains withing the bearing
capacity of the country against national interest? Food is no problem,
and with proper management water is no problem. So what is the problem?

Bob Kolker
Marinus van der Lubbe
2006-06-25 16:44:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by arminius
Population growth is lauded by sleazy business interests to include
developers, realtors, agribusiness, and all the greedy bastards who put a
profit ahead of the national interest.
Why is an increasing population that remains withing the bearing
capacity of the country against national interest? Food is no problem,
and with proper management water is no problem. So what is the problem?
What, do you always want to keep population levels at the brink of
disaster from starvation? What sort of world is that? Besides, food and
clean water in this country rely overly too much on foreign oil in
countries that either hate us (Venezuela, Mexico), are unstable and
likely to hate us when there is a regime change (Columbia, Saudi
Arabia), or near someone else who will be taking that oil no matter if
we do have thousands of troops scattered across the area (Caspian Sea,
Central Asian Republics).
Gulo Gulo
2006-06-25 17:09:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marinus van der Lubbe
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by arminius
Population growth is lauded by sleazy business interests to include
developers, realtors, agribusiness, and all the greedy bastards who put a
profit ahead of the national interest.
Why is an increasing population that remains withing the bearing
capacity of the country against national interest? Food is no problem,
and with proper management water is no problem. So what is the problem?
What, do you always want to keep population levels at the brink of
disaster from starvation?
Strawman. Kolker didn't suggest "keeping population levels at the
brink of disaster from starvation". He merely inquired as to why an
increasing population that is well within the bearing capacity of the
land is so problematic.

Why don't you address that, rather than knocking down your silly
strawman?
Roy. Just Roy.
2006-06-25 18:35:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gulo Gulo
He merely inquired as to why an
increasing population that is well within the bearing capacity of the
land is so problematic.
Why don't you address that, rather than knocking down your silly
strawman?
For that, I would refer you to Eugene Linden's "The Winds of Change:
Climate, Weather, and the Destruction of Civilizations".

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0684863529/103-7134830-5503066?v=glance&n=283155

Linden writes that civilizations expand when weather is good, only to
fall when the weather suddenly changes. He gives examples of an abrupt
shift in Mesopotamia 4,200 years that crushed the Akkadian culture, the
death of the Mayans in 900 AD, the disappearance of the Anasazi from
the American Southwest and the end of the Norse expansion in the
1300's.

Right now, we have been blessed with abundant, but unsustainable, crop
yields. The Ogalalla aquifer, which supplies and irrigates much of the
Corn and Wheat belts, is falling at a net rate of 6 feet per year - in
some areas, it may run dry within 50 years.

However, before you blame agriculture, realize that modern irrigation
equipment is always pushing for greater efficiency. More efficient
water useage = less water used = less gas burned to pump it = greater
profits. This economic pressure has reduced the amount of water drained
to between 5 and 10 percent of total water useage.

On the other hand, greater than 70 percent of our current water useage
goes to liquifying manure in huge sewer systems. We're literally
flushing our nation's future down the toilet. We definately need a
better way to treat our own waste than to submerge it into our nation's
water supply.

/Roy
Doug McDonald
2006-06-25 19:05:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roy. Just Roy.
On the other hand, greater than 70 percent of our current water useage
goes to liquifying manure in huge sewer systems.
Very little of that water is lost. It just gets reused.

Doug McDonald
i***@mindspring.com
2006-06-25 18:55:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kolker
Why is an increasing population that remains withing the bearing
capacity of the country against national interest? Food is no problem,
and with proper management water is no problem. So what is the problem?
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/25/business/25ethanol.html

For Good or Ill, Boom in Ethanol Reshapes Economy of Heartland

By ALEXEI BARRIONUEVO
Published: June 25, 2006

Dozens of factories that turn corn into the gasoline substitute ethanol
are sprouting up across the nation, from Tennessee to Kansas, and
California, often in places hundreds of miles away from where corn
is grown.

Once considered the green dream of the environmentally sensitive,
ethanol has become the province of agricultural giants that have
long pressed for its use as fuel, as well as newcomers seeking to
cash in on a bonanza.

The modern-day gold rush is driven by a number of factors:
generous government subsidies, surging demand for ethanol as a
gasoline supplement, a potent blend of farm-state politics and the
prospect of generating more than a 100 percent profit in less than
two years.

The rush is taking place despite concerns that large-scale diversion
of agricultural resources to fuel could result in price increases for
food for people and livestock, as well as the transformation of vast
preserved areas into farmland.

Even in the small town of Hereford, in the middle of the Texas Pan-
handle's cattle country and hundreds of miles from the agricultural
heartland, two companies are rushing to build plants to turn corn
into fuel.

As a result, Hereford has become a flashpoint in the ethanol boom
that is helping to reshape part of rural America's economic base.

Despite continuing doubts about whether the fuel provides a
genuine energy saving, at least 39 new ethanol plants are
expected to be completed over the next 9 to 12 months, projects
that will push the United States past Brazil as the world's largest
ethanol producer.

The new plants will add 1.4 billion gallons a year, a 30 percent
increase over current production of 4.6 billion gallons, according
to Dan Basse, president of AgResources, an economic fore-
casting firm in Chicago. By 2008, analysts predict, ethanol output
could reach 8 billion gallons a year.

For all its allure, though, there are hidden risks to the boom. Even
as struggling local communities herald the expansion of this
ethanol-industrial complex and politicians promote its use as a way
to decrease America's energy dependence on foreign oil, the
ethanol phenomenon is creating some unexpected jitters in
crucial corners of farm country.

A few agricultural economists and food industry executives are
quietly worrying that ethanol, at its current pace of development,
could strain food supplies, raise costs for the livestock industry
and force the use of marginal farmland in the search for ever
more acres to plant corn.

"This is a bit like a gold rush," warned Warren R. Staley, the chief
executive of Cargill, the multinational agricultural company based
in Minnesota. "There are unintended consequences of this
euphoria to expand ethanol production at this pace that people
are not considering."
[...]
.
.
--
Doug McDonald
2006-06-25 19:03:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by arminius
Population growth is lauded by sleazy business interests to include
developers, realtors, agribusiness, and all the greedy bastards who put a
profit ahead of the national interest.
Why is an increasing population that remains withing the bearing
capacity of the country against national interest? Food is no problem,
and with proper management water is no problem. So what is the problem?
Freedom. Too many people simply strains the unincreasable
resources beyond their capacity. For example, the limits on
visiting our National Parks and forests. The US population
is already far too large. 50 million is far too few,
300 million is far too many.


Doug McDonald
Robert Kolker
2006-06-25 20:22:59 UTC
Permalink
Freedom. Too many people simply strains the unincreasable resources
beyond their capacity. For example, the limits on
visiting our National Parks and forests. The US population is already
far too large. 50 million is far too few,
300 million is far too many.
What do you propose to keep it within limits? Legal penalties for having
too many children? What good will that do? There are still the "excess"
children. Or perhaps you would like to try King Herod's solution and
slay the first born or children under three. That will keep the
populations down alright.

Even if you penalize the production og excess children there are always
accidents. Oops! Oops!

Bob Kolker
Doug McDonald
2006-06-25 20:46:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kolker
Freedom. Too many people simply strains the unincreasable resources
beyond their capacity. For example, the limits on
visiting our National Parks and forests. The US population is already
far too large. 50 million is far too few,
300 million is far too many.
What do you propose to keep it within limits? Legal penalties for having
too many children?
No ... a graduated tax on kids. The first two kids stay the
same tax credit as now, the third, no credit, and fourth and
more, a whopper of a tax INCREMENT. IF that is not enough,
decrease credit for the second one. I do not suggest that
having lots of kids be a crime. It's not anywhere near needed.
Post by Robert Kolker
What good will that do? There are still the "excess"
children.
Actually this is not a serious problem. The serious problem
is illegal immigration. THAT needs to be stopped dead in its
tracks, and legal immigration kept limited.

Doug McDonald
Sgt.Sausage
2006-06-28 07:54:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kolker
Freedom. Too many people simply strains the unincreasable resources
beyond their capacity. For example, the limits on
visiting our National Parks and forests. The US population is already
far too large. 50 million is far too few,
300 million is far too many.
What do you propose to keep it within limits? Legal penalties for having
too many children?
No ... a graduated tax on kids. The first two kids stay the same tax
credit as now, the third, no credit, and fourth and more, a whopper of a
tax INCREMENT. IF that is not enough, decrease credit for the second one.
I do not suggest that
having lots of kids be a crime. It's not anywhere near needed.
... yet -- but will be needed some day.
Post by Robert Kolker
What good will that do? There are still the "excess" children.
Actually this is not a serious problem. The serious problem is illegal
immigration. THAT needs to be stopped dead in its tracks, and legal
immigration kept limited.
That's an altogether different issue. Yes a serious problem for the U.S.,
but I look at the population issue from a world perspective. Immigration
does not change the world population one iota.
Robert Kolker
2006-06-28 14:11:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sgt.Sausage
That's an altogether different issue. Yes a serious problem for the U.S.,
but I look at the population issue from a world perspective. Immigration
does not change the world population one iota.
In a way it does. We are not obliged to feed the whole world. Our first
duty and burden is to feed ourselves. What if there are too many
"ourselves" to feed. I don't think we have gotten anywhere near this,
but someday we could.

It would do both us and India good if a famine kills three quarters of
their population.

Bob Kolker
unknown
2006-06-28 14:08:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kolker
It would do both us and India good if a famine kills three quarters of
their population.
Actually, the population of the USA is far more
wasteful of resources than that of India.
Robert Kolker
2006-06-28 15:46:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by Robert Kolker
It would do both us and India good if a famine kills three quarters of
their population.
Actually, the population of the USA is far more
wasteful of resources than that of India.
We can afford to be wasteful.

Bob Kolekr
unknown
2006-06-29 12:05:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by unknown
Post by Robert Kolker
It would do both us and India good if a famine kills three quarters of
their population.
Actually, the population of the USA is far more
wasteful of resources than that of India.
We can afford to be wasteful.
Bob Kolekr
Why would anyone believe that?

The USA is being bankrupted by Bush and Cheney.
Gordon
2006-06-28 17:03:42 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:11:28 -0500, Robert Kolker
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by Sgt.Sausage
That's an altogether different issue. Yes a serious problem for the U.S.,
but I look at the population issue from a world perspective. Immigration
does not change the world population one iota.
In a way it does. We are not obliged to feed the whole world. Our first
duty and burden is to feed ourselves. What if there are too many
"ourselves" to feed. I don't think we have gotten anywhere near this,
but someday we could.
It would do both us and India good if a famine kills three quarters of
their population.
Bob Kolker
We may be a lot closer to that "feed ourselves" limit than most
people realize. How will we feed ourselves when the petroleum
resources that we have access to really peter out and we can no
longer produce abundant, cheap fertilizer for agricultural
purposes, or fuel for those large agricultural machines?

We have only two options...find a suitable, workable replacement
for petroleum and other fossil fuels or revert to the horse and
buggy standard of our ancestors. If it reduces to the latter,
there will be some very severe times ahead, and humanity will
revert to a survival of the fittest level of existence.

Free Habitat for Humanity, donated clothing, free medical
services, etc., leaving the recipients little to do except
copulate and have more babies may be near the end of the program.

Gordon
'foolsrushin.'
2006-07-01 01:50:21 UTC
Permalink
Does not work in non-totaliarian societies. In affluent families, there
is no problem for what one would hope are obvious reasons! [Our 7 are
going throgh Harvard now! Ed.]

To paraphrase Orwell, the poor have little other than sex, beer and the
betting shop.

What are you going to do with the stigmatised?!
Post by Doug McDonald
Post by Robert Kolker
Freedom. Too many people simply strains the unincreasable resources
beyond their capacity. For example, the limits on
visiting our National Parks and forests.
How many people do that? A friend visited one with a group a few years
ago and the 'ranger' , or whatever you call them, told them it was a
shame so few people knew or took the opportunity to visit!

The US population is already
Post by Doug McDonald
Post by Robert Kolker
far too large. 50 million is far too few,
300 million is far too many.
What do you propose to keep it within limits? Legal penalties for having
too many children?
No ... a graduated tax on kids. The first two kids stay the
same tax credit as now, the third, no credit, and fourth and
more, a whopper of a tax INCREMENT. IF that is not enough,
decrease credit for the second one. I do not suggest that
having lots of kids be a crime. It's not anywhere near needed.
Post by Robert Kolker
What good will that do? There are still the "excess"
children.
The Chinese got away with it: now, I am told, there are a lot of spoilt
brats!
Post by Doug McDonald
Actually this is not a serious problem. The serious problem
is illegal immigration. THAT needs to be stopped dead in its
tracks, and legal immigration kept limited.
Perhaps you are right - but you have changed the subject!
Post by Doug McDonald
Doug McDonald
--
'foolsrushin.'
john fernbach
2006-06-25 20:50:25 UTC
Permalink
arminius wrote:

Population growth is lauded by sleazy business interests to include
developers, realtors, agribusiness, and all the greedy bastards who put
a
profit ahead of the national interest.

Hank
----------------------------------------------------------

Hank - I disagree with nearly everything else you've ever written, but
on this one big point, you're correct.

I believe that in the long run, the very long run, the added racial
and cultural diversity that Hispanic and other immigration brings to
this country may turn out to be a great thing -- a benefit for
everybody.

IN THE LONG RUN, that is. (Although you hate the idea, I think.)

IN THE SHORT RUN, though, what we have is American capitalist business
onwers and American farmers -- aka "sleazy business interests" --
busily importing poor people into the country, for profit.

More poor immigrants, legal or illegal, mean cheap labor. More ILLEGAL
immigrants provide business with a cheap labor force that doesn't dare
to fight for higher wages or better working conditions. More Hispanic
immigrant families who buy into the "American Dream" create a huge new
group of customers that Detroit can sell big cars to. More Korean
immigrants mean more small businessmen, and the hope that these small
businessmen will join with small business owers everywhere and vote
against labor rights, against environmental protection, in favor of
"free trade."

And so we get more political conflict over immigration -- you and the
Minutemen and the Klan on one side of the battle, and various liberal
groups and Hispanic advocacy groups on the other side -- whcih means
that WORKING CLASS AND MIDDLE CLASS AMERICANS ARE DIVIDED, AGAIN ---
giving the business elite another chance to "divide and conquer."

The American elite has been doing this to American working people for
150 years now. Busy promoting more immigration -- "Give me your
tired, your poor" etc. -- and more ethnic diversity: Busy setting up
more ethnic conflicts in the voting booth and in the workplace --
conflicts pitting English vs. Irish vs. Germans vs. Scandinavians vs.
Italians vs. Russian Jews vs. Polish Catholics vs. African Americans
vs. Asians vs. Hispanics.

Busy promoting more confusion -- over race, over religion, over
culture, over language. So ordinary hardworking people of one group
(and some scoundrels in every group, too) end up competing bitterly
against ordinary hardworking people of the next group.

And who wins from the inter-ethnic, inter-racial conflict and
competition? The super-rich, the politicians, the business owners and
the bankers. Because the folks in the middle class and at the bottom
keep struggling against each other for cook crumbs, and we never turn
our attention to the people at the top who are hogging the real wealth
and power for themselves.
spiced-ham? (Alphonso Mbuto Chiang)
2006-06-27 02:29:28 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@comcast.com>, ***@nowhere.com
says...
Post by Robert Kolker
Freedom. Too many people simply strains the unincreasable resources
beyond their capacity. For example, the limits on
visiting our National Parks and forests. The US population is already
far too large. 50 million is far too few,
300 million is far too many.
What do you propose to keep it within limits? Legal penalties for having
too many children? What good will that do? There are still the "excess"
children. Or perhaps you would like to try King Herod's solution and
slay the first born or children under three. That will keep the
populations down alright.
Even if you penalize the production og excess children there are always
accidents. Oops! Oops!
Bob Kolker
Here's a point the more math oriented may appreciate. Stop having children
after a male child is born. The sex ratio in society will remain 50/50.
Any math folks care to say what the birth rate would be? I forget my discrete
math.
t***@earthlink.net
2006-06-26 13:39:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug McDonald
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by arminius
Population growth is lauded by sleazy business interests to include
developers, realtors, agribusiness, and all the greedy bastards who put a
profit ahead of the national interest.
Why is an increasing population that remains withing the bearing
capacity of the country against national interest? Food is no problem,
and with proper management water is no problem. So what is the problem?
Freedom. Too many people simply strains the unincreasable
resources beyond their capacity. For example, the limits on
visiting our National Parks and forests. The US population
is already far too large. 50 million is far too few,
Why? Let's assume the total world population is 300 million. Why would
a US pop of 50 million be too few?

-tg
Post by Doug McDonald
300 million is far too many.
Doug McDonald
R Philip Dowds
2006-06-26 00:06:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by arminius
Population growth is lauded by sleazy business interests to include
developers, realtors, agribusiness, and all the greedy bastards who put a
profit ahead of the national interest.
Why is an increasing population that remains withing the bearing
capacity of the country against national interest? Food is no problem,
and with proper management water is no problem. So what is the problem?
Bob Kolker
The problem is, capitalist market theory can understand only growth.

Capital flows toward successful businesses, and away from unsuccessful
ones. So far so good, maybe, but ... what's a successful business? We
have but one definition of that: A *growing* business. Businesses that
stay the same size indefinitely aren't successful; they're stagnating.
They're failing. Investment and savings abandon them, in favor of
growth opportunities.

And, what makes a business grow? More customers! And what creates more
customers? Pregnant women! Population growth is the bedrock of the
capitalist model.

The problem is that humanity now reaching a point where we cannot simply
grow our way out of trouble. Growth itself *is* the trouble. What we
must invent now is not more growth, but rather the stable state. In
ecological lingo, the climax forest.

This is why the "free market" cannot and will not help us find the
answer we need. Capitalism doesn't even understand the question.

RPD / Cambridge
Facts can be your friends if you treat them right.

PS: Incidentally, food and water are not yet a problem in the US. You
might want to check out other parts of the world. And, "bearing
capacity" may involve more components than just food and water.
Robert Kolker
2006-06-26 01:19:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Philip Dowds
And, what makes a business grow? More customers! And what creates more
customers? Pregnant women! Population growth is the bedrock of the
capitalist model.
Also people buying more goods and services, or more expensive goods and
services. In either case the amount of money spent increases with a
population increase.

A number of people buying more and more value added stuff will produce
economic growth.

Bob Kolker
Michael Scheltgen
2006-06-26 01:16:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by R Philip Dowds
And, what makes a business grow? More customers! And what creates
more customers? Pregnant women! Population growth is the bedrock of
the capitalist model.
Also people buying more goods and services, or more expensive goods and
services. In either case the amount of money spent increases with a
population increase.
A number of people buying more and more value added stuff will produce
economic growth.
Bob Kolker
For some reason I thought investment in human capital and R & D,
and the subsequent productivity gains were the engines of real
economic growth.

Anyone know a good lawyer? I'm gonna sue my professors.

:-)
Robert Kolker
2006-06-26 05:20:20 UTC
Permalink
For some reason I thought investment in human capital and R & D, and the
subsequent productivity gains were the engines of real economic growth.
Its a chicken-egg thing. No one is going to invest in producing new
kinds of goods and seruvices unless there is a good chance they will be
bought. Consumption is as necessary as production.

Bob Kolker
john fernbach
2006-06-26 19:37:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Scheltgen
For some reason I thought investment in human capital and R & D,
and the subsequent productivity gains were the engines of real
economic growth.
Anyone know a good lawyer? I'm gonna sue my professors.
:-)
Michael - maybe you ought to sue your professors.

They've evidently presented a limiting case, which is valid in some
times and some places, as a general law.

They've clearly given you the false impression that because "investment
in human" capital in the form of better training for the workers is
SOMETIMES essential for capitalism, this is ALWAYS what capitalist
entrepreneurs and investors want.

Let's use your terms, though.

"Investment in human capital" - obviously that can mean investment in
training and education for the workers, to make high-wage workers
smarter, more efficient, and more productive. Hence able to generate
greater profits per hour for the employer.

However, "investment in human capital" also can mean finding cheaper,
less educated, and/or much poorer workers. Who will work for lower
wages because they have to. And who therefore will generate greater
profits per hour for the empoyer, so long as the price of the product
stays the same.

Look at the economic history of the world textile industry for the past
50 - 100 years, Michael, and you'll see both kinds of "investment in
human capital" occurring. But I think you'll see the corporate search
for cheaper labor predominating. In the US textile industry, for
example, you first see the big textile companies moving out of New
England to the American South, where living standards were lower, union
organizing was damned near impossible and labor therefore was cheaper
than in Massachusetts.

Then, between around 1960 and 2000, I think you'll see US corporations
either getting out of textile production, because they can't compete
well with cheap clothes made in Latin America and Asia.

Or you'll see some US producers investing in the Dominican Republic,
Haiti, China -- I believe the Levis Strauss, the famous bluejeans
maker, at one point even invested in Mynanmar under the brutal military
dictatorship, until social activists here in the US shamed them into
getting out of the country.

Ditto with automobile production, I believe. When auto wages in the US
rose, and when middle-class growth in places like China and Brazil and
Mexico started to generate potentially lucrative markets for cars in
these places, Ford Motor Co. in particular began investing extensively
in "offshore" [meaning non-US] production.

Ultimately, capitalist business is about the generation of profits; in
a more or less free market, capitalist enterprises can't survive
without profits. And profits depend in large part on what the
economists call a favor "value added" per worker that a company
employs. So capitalist companies HAVE to pursue a high "value added,"
or risk bankruptcy.

If the company pays high wages, then it can obviously boost "value
added" by helping its workers be more efficient, either through
education and training or through labor-saving machinery, or both.

But the company also can boost its "value added" by hiring workers who
have the same productivity, or even lower productivity, and paying them
less per hour.

It's the DIFFERENCE between the wages they earn and the economic value
they produce per hour that's the key.

BTW - Hazel Henderson, in "The Politics of the Solar Age," has pointed
out that thecapitalist pursuit of ever-higher labor productivity
generally means that a capitalist economy has to generate ever-higher
output, just to keep unemployment in the society from getting worse.
So long as companies invest in machines and computers that enable a
given number of workers to produce an ever-rising output of cars, or
steel, or plastics, or glass or lumber or whatever per hour, the US
economy has to find ways to consume an ever-rising quantity of cars,
steel, plastics, glass etc. -- or a lot of workers will have to lose
their jobs.

Or, alternatively, the capitalist economy has to develop new industries
and new products -- e.g. personal computers, genetically engineered
foods, plastic throwaway packaging, etc. -- to soak up the excess labor
that's been discharged by basic manufacturing industry as its
productivity improves.

In either case, the capitalist economy has to GROW, GROW, GROW -- even
in the absence of any population growth -- just to keep unemployment
rates from getting worse.

When capitalist growth either allows or encourages additional
population growth, of course, the addiction to growth in economic
output grows more intense. Which normally has really negative
implications for the natural environment, and indeed for human welfare
over the long term.
t***@earthlink.net
2006-06-28 11:32:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by john fernbach
In either case, the capitalist economy has to GROW, GROW, GROW -- even
in the absence of any population growth -- just to keep unemployment
rates from getting worse.
This is wrong. If there is a very high ratio of resources per capita,
there is no such thing as unemployment. If population levels are
capped, increased labor productivity follows from the desire to change
(add to) lifestyle (technology), and it isn't inevitable that negative
effects will follow.

-tg
R Philip Dowds
2006-06-28 23:52:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@earthlink.net
Post by john fernbach
In either case, the capitalist economy has to GROW, GROW, GROW -- even
in the absence of any population growth -- just to keep unemployment
rates from getting worse.
This is wrong. If there is a very high ratio of resources per capita,
there is no such thing as unemployment. If population levels are
capped, increased labor productivity follows from the desire to change
(add to) lifestyle (technology), and it isn't inevitable that negative
effects will follow.
-tg
You haven't exactly un-made the point. True enough, increased per
capita productivity might produce the result of more stuff for a fixed
population. But increased per capita productivity might also mean that
employers can sustain their market shares and make healthy profits with
fewer workers, and thus unemployment rises. Your best shot at getting
rich in a market economy is still ... more customers.

RPD / Cambridge
Facts can be your friends if you treat them right.
t***@earthlink.net
2006-06-29 10:30:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Philip Dowds
Post by t***@earthlink.net
Post by john fernbach
In either case, the capitalist economy has to GROW, GROW, GROW -- even
in the absence of any population growth -- just to keep unemployment
rates from getting worse.
This is wrong. If there is a very high ratio of resources per capita,
there is no such thing as unemployment. If population levels are
capped, increased labor productivity follows from the desire to change
(add to) lifestyle (technology), and it isn't inevitable that negative
effects will follow.
-tg
You haven't exactly un-made the point. True enough, increased per
capita productivity might produce the result of more stuff for a fixed
population. But increased per capita productivity might also mean that
employers can sustain their market shares and make healthy profits with
fewer workers, and thus unemployment rises. Your best shot at getting
rich in a market economy is still ... more customers.
You missed the part about a high resource per capita ratio. In such a
situation, labor would be the limited resource. And the idea of
"getting rich" starts to have a different meaning.

If labor is scarce, then people will fnd new jobs. And if resources are
abundant, they have the option of adding value (becoming "employers")
themselves. So the only negative consequence would be increased
consumption of resources, which isn't a problem since you can reduce
the population.

-tg

ps If resources are abundant, and labor is scarce, what does it mean to
be rich? How does one accumulate wealth?
Post by R Philip Dowds
RPD / Cambridge
Facts can be your friends if you treat them right.
R Philip Dowds
2006-06-29 23:07:24 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by t***@earthlink.net
You missed the part about a high resource per capita ratio. In such a
situation, labor would be the limited resource. And the idea of
"getting rich" starts to have a different meaning.
If labor is scarce, then people will fnd new jobs. And if resources are
abundant, they have the option of adding value (becoming "employers")
themselves. So the only negative consequence would be increased
consumption of resources, which isn't a problem since you can reduce
the population.
From an environmental standpoint, I thought that, worldwide, more
consumption / production per capita was a major part of the problem.
What's this about solving the equation by reducing the capitas?
Post by t***@earthlink.net
-tg
ps If resources are abundant, and labor is scarce, what does it mean to
be rich? How does one accumulate wealth?
In a world economy which puts more on your table than you can ever eat,
wealth is ... time. The wealthy of the world will be working only 1 or
2 days a week, and using their free time to act up in community theater,
learn how to play the mandolin, volunteer at their church, visit their
siblings more often, caravan on blue highways, or take a raft trip down
the Mississippi. (Nobody needs three houses ...)

RPD / Cambridge
Facts can be your friends if you treat them right.
t***@earthlink.net
2006-06-30 11:05:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Philip Dowds
...
Post by t***@earthlink.net
You missed the part about a high resource per capita ratio. In such a
situation, labor would be the limited resource. And the idea of
"getting rich" starts to have a different meaning.
If labor is scarce, then people will fnd new jobs. And if resources are
abundant, they have the option of adding value (becoming "employers")
themselves. So the only negative consequence would be increased
consumption of resources, which isn't a problem since you can reduce
the population.
From an environmental standpoint, I thought that, worldwide, more
consumption / production per capita was a major part of the problem.
What's this about solving the equation by reducing the capitas?
I think you answered this question with your answer below. Population
deniers often make the argument about per capita consumption increasing
without considering the individual consumption maximum.

Of course, if there are lots of poor people and they can suddenly
afford cars, they will buy cars and use more gasoline. But again, I'm
talking about the case where there is a small population relative to
resources available. If everyone can have as much as they want, to
believe that consumption will continue to increase, you have to assume
that people want an infinite amount of everything, which is absurd. I
don't think Bill Gates drives twice as many miles every time his
fortune doubles.
Post by R Philip Dowds
Post by t***@earthlink.net
-tg
ps If resources are abundant, and labor is scarce, what does it mean to
be rich? How does one accumulate wealth?
In a world economy which puts more on your table than you can ever eat,
wealth is ... time. The wealthy of the world will be working only 1 or
2 days a week, and using their free time to act up in community theater,
learn how to play the mandolin, volunteer at their church, visit their
siblings more often, caravan on blue highways, or take a raft trip down
the Mississippi. (Nobody needs three houses ...)
RPD / Cambridge
Facts can be your friends if you treat them right.
R Philip Dowds
2006-07-01 00:38:21 UTC
Permalink
...

If everyone can have as much as they want, to
Post by t***@earthlink.net
believe that consumption will continue to increase, you have to assume
that people want an infinite amount of everything, which is absurd. I
don't think Bill Gates drives twice as many miles every time his
fortune doubles.
But ... even though he is giving away billions, Mr Gates still has a $30
mln house. He certainly can afford it. And maybe he has earned it.
But does he *need* it?

Yes, I know, this is an existential question. But a $30 mln house does
tend to refute your assertion that people will not seek out infinite
amounts of everything, merely because it's absurd.

RPD / Cambridge
Facts can be your friends if you treat them right.
Robert Kolker
2006-07-01 01:54:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Philip Dowds
Yes, I know, this is an existential question. But a $30 mln house does
tend to refute your assertion that people will not seek out infinite
amounts of everything, merely because it's absurd.
30 million is a finite amount.

Bob Kolker
R Philip Dowds
2006-07-01 09:55:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by R Philip Dowds
Yes, I know, this is an existential question. But a $30 mln house
does tend to refute your assertion that people will not seek out
infinite amounts of everything, merely because it's absurd.
30 million is a finite amount.
Bob Kolker
OK, I get it. Since reaching for infinity is by definition impossible
and unachievable (ie, "absurd"), nobody actually does this, even if they
so desire. Do I detect a tautology here? (Perhaps we could agree that
the needs and wants of many or most people are endless, not infinite.)

RPD / Cambridge
Facts can be your friends if you treat them right.
t***@earthlink.net
2006-07-01 10:56:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Philip Dowds
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by R Philip Dowds
Yes, I know, this is an existential question. But a $30 mln house
does tend to refute your assertion that people will not seek out
infinite amounts of everything, merely because it's absurd.
30 million is a finite amount.
Bob Kolker
OK, I get it. Since reaching for infinity is by definition impossible
and unachievable (ie, "absurd"), nobody actually does this, even if they
so desire. Do I detect a tautology here? (Perhaps we could agree that
the needs and wants of many or most people are endless, not infinite.)
I wouldn't agree at all. But there are two errors that need correction
in your analysis.

First, the *price* paid for his house is a non sequitur. We are talking
about consumption here. How much more lumber is there in this house
than in a 300,000 house? How much more fuel to heat it, and so on? The
answer is, it isn't 1,000 times more, or even close. A small house
(USA) might be 1,000 sq ft, and an absurdly large mansion might be
50,000. Which brings us to the second point.

You can't say needs and wants of most people are endless because that's
not what we observe. Gates could have a house 100 or 200 or 1000 times
as big as the average person, but he doesn't. If you look at what
wealthy people do, you see that their consumption of resources flattens
out. The reason is that for rational people, there are actual physical
limits to what is useful.

Do you really think that you or the people you associate with would
consume endless resources if you e.g. won the lottery? Can you give an
example of what you would do?

-tg
Post by R Philip Dowds
RPD / Cambridge
Facts can be your friends if you treat them right.
R Philip Dowds
2006-07-01 14:59:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@earthlink.net
Post by R Philip Dowds
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by R Philip Dowds
Yes, I know, this is an existential question. But a $30 mln house
does tend to refute your assertion that people will not seek out
infinite amounts of everything, merely because it's absurd.
30 million is a finite amount.
Bob Kolker
OK, I get it. Since reaching for infinity is by definition impossible
and unachievable (ie, "absurd"), nobody actually does this, even if they
so desire. Do I detect a tautology here? (Perhaps we could agree that
the needs and wants of many or most people are endless, not infinite.)
I wouldn't agree at all. But there are two errors that need correction
in your analysis.
First, the *price* paid for his house is a non sequitur. We are talking
about consumption here. How much more lumber is there in this house
than in a 300,000 house? How much more fuel to heat it, and so on? The
answer is, it isn't 1,000 times more, or even close. A small house
(USA) might be 1,000 sq ft, and an absurdly large mansion might be
50,000. Which brings us to the second point.
You can't say needs and wants of most people are endless because that's
not what we observe. Gates could have a house 100 or 200 or 1000 times
as big as the average person, but he doesn't. If you look at what
wealthy people do, you see that their consumption of resources flattens
out. The reason is that for rational people, there are actual physical
limits to what is useful.
OK, I get it. The fact that he could have commissioned an even bigger
house, but chose not too, proves he is consuming responsibly. This
could be good news -- so long as he did not economize on his house so he
could add to his Rembrandt collection. (As a practicing architect,
however, I'm not sure that I can go along with your assertion that
collosal private homes inevitably result in significant economies of scale.)
Post by t***@earthlink.net
Do you really think that you or the people you associate with would
consume endless resources if you e.g. won the lottery? Can you give an
example of what you would do?
Well, no, but perhaps I'm different from most people. And the folks I
hang out with in the Cambridge area are notably different from the ones
I encounter when I visit family in Delaware.
But perhaps not different when it comes to "needing" more stuff.
I'm not aware of a survey which speaks directly to this question, but
I'd guess that most people, if asked, would never answer, "Yes, I have
enough stuff, what I now need is more time." Rather, they would reply,
"I still need more stuff, which is why I have so little time." And this
answer would be universal from Las Vegas to Bangladesh.

But let's leave off fussing about Mr Gates. Your argument seems to be
that we need not fear massive environmental degradation because people
have natural limits to their desires -- AND -- these natural limits will
kick in before we destroy the planet. I think your argument needs more
elaboration. For instance, if a $30 mln house is perfectly reasonable,
and demonstrative of the natural limits of our desires, what would
happen to the planet if everyone built one?

RPD / Cambridge
Facts can be your friends if you treat them right.
Robert Kolker
2006-07-01 18:16:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Philip Dowds
OK, I get it. The fact that he could have commissioned an even bigger
house, but chose not too, proves he is consuming responsibly.
Responsible consumption. Translated: consumption you either approve of
or tolerate. I am underwhelmed by your non-profundity.

When will you stop envying what other people have? Look to your own
happiness and well-being.

Bob Kolker
R Philip Dowds
2006-07-01 18:10:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by R Philip Dowds
OK, I get it. The fact that he could have commissioned an even bigger
house, but chose not too, proves he is consuming responsibly.
Responsible consumption. Translated: consumption you either approve of
or tolerate. I am underwhelmed by your non-profundity.
When will you stop envying what other people have? Look to your own
happiness and well-being.
Bob Kolker
You are changing the subject, yes?

RPD/Cambridge
Facts can be your friends if you treat them right.

PS: If you like, we can discuss the Four Noble Truths. I tend to
summarize them as, Life is hard when we are owned by our possessions.
(The Buddhists would not oversimplify like this, of course ...)
t***@earthlink.net
2006-07-02 10:25:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Philip Dowds
Post by t***@earthlink.net
Post by R Philip Dowds
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by R Philip Dowds
Yes, I know, this is an existential question. But a $30 mln house
does tend to refute your assertion that people will not seek out
infinite amounts of everything, merely because it's absurd.
30 million is a finite amount.
Bob Kolker
OK, I get it. Since reaching for infinity is by definition impossible
and unachievable (ie, "absurd"), nobody actually does this, even if they
so desire. Do I detect a tautology here? (Perhaps we could agree that
the needs and wants of many or most people are endless, not infinite.)
I wouldn't agree at all. But there are two errors that need correction
in your analysis.
First, the *price* paid for his house is a non sequitur. We are talking
about consumption here. How much more lumber is there in this house
than in a 300,000 house? How much more fuel to heat it, and so on? The
answer is, it isn't 1,000 times more, or even close. A small house
(USA) might be 1,000 sq ft, and an absurdly large mansion might be
50,000. Which brings us to the second point.
You can't say needs and wants of most people are endless because that's
not what we observe. Gates could have a house 100 or 200 or 1000 times
as big as the average person, but he doesn't. If you look at what
wealthy people do, you see that their consumption of resources flattens
out. The reason is that for rational people, there are actual physical
limits to what is useful.
OK, I get it. The fact that he could have commissioned an even bigger
house, but chose not too, proves he is consuming responsibly. This
could be good news -- so long as he did not economize on his house so he
could add to his Rembrandt collection. (As a practicing architect,
however, I'm not sure that I can go along with your assertion that
collosal private homes inevitably result in significant economies of scale.)
Post by t***@earthlink.net
Do you really think that you or the people you associate with would
consume endless resources if you e.g. won the lottery? Can you give an
example of what you would do?
Well, no, but perhaps I'm different from most people. And the folks I
hang out with in the Cambridge area are notably different from the ones
I encounter when I visit family in Delaware.
But perhaps not different when it comes to "needing" more stuff.
I'm not aware of a survey which speaks directly to this question, but
I'd guess that most people, if asked, would never answer, "Yes, I have
enough stuff, what I now need is more time." Rather, they would reply,
"I still need more stuff, which is why I have so little time." And this
answer would be universal from Las Vegas to Bangladesh.
But let's leave off fussing about Mr Gates. Your argument seems to be
that we need not fear massive environmental degradation because people
have natural limits to their desires -- AND -- these natural limits will
kick in before we destroy the planet. I think your argument needs more
elaboration. For instance, if a $30 mln house is perfectly reasonable,
and demonstrative of the natural limits of our desires, what would
happen to the planet if everyone built one?
I'm afraid that, like Kolker, you are more concerned with imposing some
kind of moral structure on people than with solving problems. Why do
you care if someone buys art? Why do you keep talking about the price
of a house rather than the environmental impact?

To answer your question: If the population is stable at a number where
the ratio of resources to people is high, then the individual
consumption maximum will determine the lifestyle.

I use the first approximation of 300 million total humans. Since you
and your superior buddies live in the US northeast as I do, you can
visualize the scenario. There would be 7 million people living on the
entire east coast. Are you saying that they couldn't all have nice
houses without destroying the environment?

-tg
Post by R Philip Dowds
RPD / Cambridge
Facts can be your friends if you treat them right.
R Philip Dowds
2006-07-02 14:13:13 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by t***@earthlink.net
I'm afraid that, like Kolker, you are more concerned with imposing some
kind of moral structure on people than with solving problems. Why do
you care if someone buys art? Why do you keep talking about the price
of a house rather than the environmental impact?
Actually, I don't. If the upper one percent decides their extraordinary
resources are best spent bidding and auctioning the work of the Old
Masters (preferably on e-Bay, so they aren't driving to the auctions),
that's a lot easier on the environment than flying around in one's
private jet plane. So my analogy was perhaps poorly contrived.
However, there are fairly direct linear correlations between the
construction cost of a building, the amount of materials required, the
energy consumption embedded in those materials, and the negative
consequences on the environment. Sure, you make the $30mln house
LEED-certified if you want, but it's still going to have a bigger
environmental impact -- usually much bigger -- than a $300K house. And
there's no evidence whatsoever that the planet can support a $300K
single family home for everyone; all the evidence points the other way.
Post by t***@earthlink.net
To answer your question: If the population is stable at a number where
the ratio of resources to people is high, then the individual
consumption maximum will determine the lifestyle.
But I think this thread is losing track of the proposition of origin:
That sensible people know they can usefully and meaningful consume only
so much; that most people are sensible; and that a natural limit to
their appetites will kick in before serious permanent damage is done to
the biosphere. Do you in fact believe this? Perhaps not, because ...
Post by t***@earthlink.net
I use the first approximation of 300 million total humans. Since you
and your superior buddies live in the US northeast as I do, you can
visualize the scenario. There would be 7 million people living on the
entire east coast. Are you saying that they couldn't all have nice
houses without destroying the environment?
I see you're more interested in eliminating the multiplier of capita,
than the multiplicand of per capita consumption. (This harkens back to
the actual title of this thread.) I agree with you 101% that population
size and growth rates are the bedrock of the environmental challenge.
Remind me again, please, how we will get the population of the eastern
seaboard down to 7 mln folks.

RPD / Cambridge
Facts can be your friends if you treat them right.
Robert Kolker
2006-07-02 16:17:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Philip Dowds
I see you're more interested in eliminating the multiplier of capita,
than the multiplicand of per capita consumption. (This harkens back to
the actual title of this thread.) I agree with you 101% that population
size and growth rates are the bedrock of the environmental challenge.
Remind me again, please, how we will get the population of the eastern
seaboard down to 7 mln folks.
Easy. One half of La Palma in the Canaries slips into the sea one fine
morning. The 700 foot high tsunami that hits the Atlantic Coast does the
rest. The landslide is a disaster that is simply waiting to happen.
There is no doubt at all that it WILL happen.

Bob Kolker
Gordon
2006-07-02 16:46:43 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 02 Jul 2006 11:17:08 -0500, Robert Kolker
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by R Philip Dowds
I see you're more interested in eliminating the multiplier of capita,
than the multiplicand of per capita consumption. (This harkens back to
the actual title of this thread.) I agree with you 101% that population
size and growth rates are the bedrock of the environmental challenge.
Remind me again, please, how we will get the population of the eastern
seaboard down to 7 mln folks.
Easy. One half of La Palma in the Canaries slips into the sea one fine
morning. The 700 foot high tsunami that hits the Atlantic Coast does the
rest. The landslide is a disaster that is simply waiting to happen.
There is no doubt at all that it WILL happen.
Bob Kolker
Or, the H5N1 Avian Flu could mutate into a very lethal, easily
transmissible human form, for which there is no effective
treatment, or immunization. The high population density areas
would likely be hit the hardest.

Gordon
t***@earthlink.net
2006-07-02 16:13:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Philip Dowds
...
Post by t***@earthlink.net
I'm afraid that, like Kolker, you are more concerned with imposing some
kind of moral structure on people than with solving problems. Why do
you care if someone buys art? Why do you keep talking about the price
of a house rather than the environmental impact?
Actually, I don't. If the upper one percent decides their extraordinary
resources are best spent bidding and auctioning the work of the Old
Masters (preferably on e-Bay, so they aren't driving to the auctions),
that's a lot easier on the environment than flying around in one's
private jet plane. So my analogy was perhaps poorly contrived.
However, there are fairly direct linear correlations between the
construction cost of a building, the amount of materials required, the
energy consumption embedded in those materials, and the negative
consequences on the environment. Sure, you make the $30mln house
LEED-certified if you want, but it's still going to have a bigger
environmental impact -- usually much bigger -- than a $300K house.
An intersting sub-topic, which I might like to discuss another time
since you may actually know what you're talking about. I thought costs
had a lot to do with labor.
Post by R Philip Dowds
And
there's no evidence whatsoever that the planet can support a $300K
single family home for everyone; all the evidence points the other way.
Post by t***@earthlink.net
To answer your question: If the population is stable at a number where
the ratio of resources to people is high, then the individual
consumption maximum will determine the lifestyle.
That sensible people know they can usefully and meaningful consume only
so much; that most people are sensible; and that a natural limit to
their appetites will kick in before serious permanent damage is done to
the biosphere. Do you in fact believe this? Perhaps not, because ...
Post by t***@earthlink.net
I use the first approximation of 300 million total humans. Since you
and your superior buddies live in the US northeast as I do, you can
visualize the scenario. There would be 7 million people living on the
entire east coast. Are you saying that they couldn't all have nice
houses without destroying the environment?
I see you're more interested in eliminating the multiplier of capita,
than the multiplicand of per capita consumption. (This harkens back to
the actual title of this thread.) I agree with you 101% that population
size and growth rates are the bedrock of the environmental challenge.
Remind me again, please, how we will get the population of the eastern
seaboard down to 7 mln folks.
*

The first step is to debunk various myths that are repeated endlessly
when the topic comes up. Like the "per capita consumption will
increase" myth.

I would also point out that reducing individual consumption might well
follow from reducing population. .

I know it is sci-fi speculation, but if there were those 7 million on
the east coast, do you think they would opt to spread themselves out in
a mega-sprawl, or would they perhaps concentrate in the optimal urban
areas to maximize labor efficiency? How about energy choices---would it
make sense to drill for oil in Alaska, or would a few nuclear plants do
very nicely to round out renewable more local sources? And so on, with
reduction in marginal uses for almost everything.

So the way you begin to get to the 7 million, if that's the optimal
number, is by recognizing that the mechanisms we are used to talking
about are forced by growth *and* by having exceeded a sustainable
population. If you start heading in the other direction, you may well
create a positive feedback that makes things go faster and more
smoothly than we can imagine now. Reduced competition for
resources->greater wealth->reduced birth rate.....->

-tg
Post by R Philip Dowds
RPD / Cambridge
Facts can be your friends if you treat them right.
R Philip Dowds
2006-07-02 23:47:08 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by t***@earthlink.net
Post by R Philip Dowds
However, there are fairly direct linear correlations between the
construction cost of a building, the amount of materials required, the
energy consumption embedded in those materials, and the negative
consequences on the environment. Sure, you make the $30mln house
LEED-certified if you want, but it's still going to have a bigger
environmental impact -- usually much bigger -- than a $300K house.
An intersting sub-topic, which I might like to discuss another time
since you may actually know what you're talking about. I thought costs
had a lot to do with labor.
In terms of what happens at and on the construction site, the cost ratio
of labor to materials is roughly 50/50. But that varies by trade.
Painting is 10% materials and 90% labor, and installations of custom
casework are flipped in the opposite direction.
But ... any material brought to the jobsite has labor and energy
imbedded in it. The casework installed so cheaply by on-site labor was
carefully pre-fabbed by skilled labor in a woodworking shop somewhere
else. The labor/material ratio is an elusive concept.
None of which, however, contradicts my basic point: The $30mln
house will always be a much heavier hit on the environment than the
$300K house.
Post by t***@earthlink.net
Post by R Philip Dowds
And
there's no evidence whatsoever that the planet can support a $300K
single family home for everyone; all the evidence points the other way.
Post by t***@earthlink.net
To answer your question: If the population is stable at a number where
the ratio of resources to people is high, then the individual
consumption maximum will determine the lifestyle.
Well maybe. From what I've seen, (a) even with constant population
(hard to achieve), resources get used up, and are a declining balance.
And (b) most people are nowhere near consuming as much as they'd like to.

...
Post by t***@earthlink.net
The first step is to debunk various myths that are repeated endlessly
when the topic comes up. Like the "per capita consumption will
increase" myth.
I would also point out that reducing individual consumption might well
follow from reducing population. .
I know it is sci-fi speculation, but if there were those 7 million on
the east coast, do you think they would opt to spread themselves out in
a mega-sprawl, or would they perhaps concentrate in the optimal urban
areas to maximize labor efficiency? How about energy choices---would it
make sense to drill for oil in Alaska, or would a few nuclear plants do
very nicely to round out renewable more local sources? And so on, with
reduction in marginal uses for almost everything.
So the way you begin to get to the 7 million, if that's the optimal
number, is by recognizing that the mechanisms we are used to talking
about are forced by growth *and* by having exceeded a sustainable
population. If you start heading in the other direction, you may well
create a positive feedback that makes things go faster and more
smoothly than we can imagine now. Reduced competition for
resources->greater wealth->reduced birth rate.....->
Maybe. Don't see it yet. But maybe it's possible. How can we
precipitate this?

RPD / Cambridge
Facts can be your friends if you treat them right?
Robert Kolker
2006-07-03 02:41:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Philip Dowds
None of which, however, contradicts my basic point: The $30mln
house will always be a much heavier hit on the environment than the
$300K house.
How many 30 mil houses are there, compared to 300 K houses. If the
fraction is less than 1/100 the cheaper houses are making a bigger
aggregate impact on the environment than rarer rich mans houses.

I get the impression you disapprove of the rich. Is it envy?

Bob Kolker
R Philip Dowds
2006-07-03 09:57:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by R Philip Dowds
None of which, however, contradicts my basic point: The $30mln
house will always be a much heavier hit on the environment than the
$300K house.
How many 30 mil houses are there, compared to 300 K houses. If the
fraction is less than 1/100 the cheaper houses are making a bigger
aggregate impact on the environment than rarer rich mans houses.
Fair enough. Indeed, the proliferation of 2,400 sq ft single family
homes serving the middle class has lead to all kinds of problems,
including loss of natural habitat, sprawl, long commutes and traffic
congestion, and possibly even the fragmentation of society (such that
people are quick to presume all disagreements are manifestations of
class warfare, rather than substantive.)
Post by Robert Kolker
I get the impression you disapprove of the rich. Is it envy?
For some reason, it has become important to you to change the subject
from environmental challenges to my personal psychology. Why is that?
Do you feel that you know about one topic than the other?
Post by Robert Kolker
Bob Kolker
RPD / Cambridge
Facts can be your friends if you treat them right.

PS: I will remind you that I entered this discussion, not to flog Mr
Gates, but rather to address the proposition that natural limits to
individual desire and consumption will kick in before we destroy the
planet. Is this a topic to which you'd like to return?
Robert Kolker
2006-07-03 13:54:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Philip Dowds
PS: I will remind you that I entered this discussion, not to flog Mr
Gates, but rather to address the proposition that natural limits to
individual desire and consumption will kick in before we destroy the
planet. Is this a topic to which you'd like to return?
The limits of man's desire are the laws of physics. Keeping pushing on
Nature until Nature pushes back.

Take and use what you can. We live for but a short while. Take, use it,
enjoy it and screw the future. Let the future take care of itself.

Bob Kolker
R Philip Dowds
2006-07-03 15:46:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by R Philip Dowds
PS: I will remind you that I entered this discussion, not to flog Mr
Gates, but rather to address the proposition that natural limits to
individual desire and consumption will kick in before we destroy the
planet. Is this a topic to which you'd like to return?
The limits of man's desire are the laws of physics. Keeping pushing on
Nature until Nature pushes back.
Take and use what you can. We live for but a short while. Take, use it,
enjoy it and screw the future. Let the future take care of itself.
Bob Kolker
OK, that's very clear. I do not agree, but I have no rebuttal. Over
and out.

RPD / Cambridge
Facts can be your friends if you treat them right.
Gordon
2006-07-03 19:40:52 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 15:46:57 GMT, R Philip Dowds
Post by R Philip Dowds
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by R Philip Dowds
PS: I will remind you that I entered this discussion, not to flog Mr
Gates, but rather to address the proposition that natural limits to
individual desire and consumption will kick in before we destroy the
planet. Is this a topic to which you'd like to return?
The limits of man's desire are the laws of physics. Keeping pushing on
Nature until Nature pushes back.
Take and use what you can. We live for but a short while. Take, use it,
enjoy it and screw the future. Let the future take care of itself.
Bob Kolker
OK, that's very clear. I do not agree, but I have no rebuttal. Over
and out.
RPD / Cambridge
Facts can be your friends if you treat them right.
Over AND out? This is the first time I've seen this expression
used correctly. Over means, "I'm through talking. It's your turn,
now." Out means, "I'm switching my receiver off. I won't be
listening."

Over but not out. I'll shut up for a while but will still listen
to you. Gordon
t***@earthlink.net
2006-07-03 14:20:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Philip Dowds
...
Well maybe. From what I've seen, (a) even with constant population
(hard to achieve), resources get used up, and are a declining balance.
And (b) most people are nowhere near consuming as much as they'd like to.
I don't know what you've seen. Let's go back to what you said earlier:

Quote

But I think this thread is losing track of the proposition of origin:
That sensible people know they can usefully and meaningful consume only

so much; that most people are sensible; and that a natural limit to
their appetites will kick in before serious permanent damage is done to

the biosphere.

End quote

My proposition of origin is *not* that people are "sensible", but that
they are rational. It doesn't matter if they "know" that they can only
"meaningfully" consume so much, it only matters that there is no
psychological defect that causes them to consume beyond what are
natural physical limits.

I will repeat my earlier comment that you and Kolker both have an
elitist view; you both believe that you have risen above the "others";
in your case the unenlightened are greedy, in his, inferior and
envious.

My own view is that the behaviors that we observe today are perfectly
rational in the context of too many (increasing) humans competing for
too few (decreasing) resources. What you are apparently unwilling to do
is consider the case where the parameters are different. Or, if you
have considered it, you are unwilling to present any justification for
your conclusions.

Do you think that 7 million people living on the ECUSA would live in
sprawl? Come on, you must have taken a few urban planning courses at
some point.

-tg
R Philip Dowds
2006-07-03 16:43:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Philip Dowds
Post by R Philip Dowds
...
Well maybe. From what I've seen, (a) even with constant population
(hard to achieve), resources get used up, and are a declining balance.
And (b) most people are nowhere near consuming as much as they'd like to.
Quote
That sensible people know they can usefully and meaningful consume only
so much; that most people are sensible; and that a natural limit to
their appetites will kick in before serious permanent damage is done to
the biosphere.
End quote
My proposition of origin is *not* that people are "sensible", but that
they are rational. It doesn't matter if they "know" that they can only
"meaningfully" consume so much, it only matters that there is no
psychological defect that causes them to consume beyond what are
natural physical limits.
Natural physical limits ... of what? Of themselves? Meaning that they
won't eat more food than is good for them? They won't replace last
year's perfectly good clothes with the more fashionable clothing of this
year? They won't buy computers, cameras or cars for which they do not
have the talent nor training to operate correctly? They won't purchase
CDs or DVDs in which they will maintain no lasting interest? They won't
own a house which is too big for them to keep clean by their own efforts?

OR ... Are you speaking of the natural physical limits of the planet?
That if folks like Mr Gore just bring them some information and make the
case, they will eventually understand that their consumption patterns
are unsustainable, and they will abandon these patterns?
Post by R Philip Dowds
I will repeat my earlier comment that you and Kolker both have an
elitist view; you both believe that you have risen above the "others";
in your case the unenlightened are greedy, in his, inferior and
envious.
I did not, and rarely ever, use the word "greedy" for much of anything.
I will, however, make clear my view that people in general are much
more attuned to short-term cost/benefit analysis than to long-term.
See, for instance, Mr Kolker's most recent reply.
Post by R Philip Dowds
My own view is that the behaviors that we observe today are perfectly
rational in the context of too many (increasing) humans competing for
too few (decreasing) resources.
OK. I don't dispute your characterization of the context: increasing
population, decreasing resources. Could you be more explicit about how
our responsive behaviors are rational?

What you are apparently unwilling to do
Post by R Philip Dowds
is consider the case where the parameters are different. Or, if you
have considered it, you are unwilling to present any justification for
your conclusions.
Sorry, not tracking here. Can you be more explicit?
Post by R Philip Dowds
Do you think that 7 million people living on the ECUSA would live in
sprawl? Come on, you must have taken a few urban planning courses at
some point.
Well, yes. Depending on how far inland you want to define "coastal",
roughly 80 mln people live on the East Coast of the USA. If you reduce
them to just 7 mln ... the survivors will still choose to live in single
family homes, on 1- to 5-acre lots. This is sprawl. But since you've
eliminated 73 mln people, it is less extensive sprawl. (Not clear,
however, how much resources the survivors would be willing to commit to
restoration of previously destroyed landscapes ...)

And yes, I did spend a couple years in the MIT Urban Studies department.

RPD / Cambridge
Facts can be your friends if you treat them right.
Robert Kolker
2006-07-03 17:51:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Philip Dowds
Post by R Philip Dowds
Post by R Philip Dowds
...
Well maybe. From what I've seen, (a) even with constant population
(hard to achieve), resources get used up, and are a declining balance.
And (b) most people are nowhere near consuming as much as they'd like to.
Quote
That sensible people know they can usefully and meaningful consume only
so much; that most people are sensible; and that a natural limit to
their appetites will kick in before serious permanent damage is done to
the biosphere.
End quote
My proposition of origin is *not* that people are "sensible", but that
they are rational. It doesn't matter if they "know" that they can only
"meaningfully" consume so much, it only matters that there is no
psychological defect that causes them to consume beyond what are
natural physical limits.
Natural physical limits ... of what? Of themselves? Meaning that they
won't eat more food than is good for them? They won't replace last
One can always eat more than is good for one. The issue is how much can
be stuffed into the belly before regurgitation occurs.
Post by R Philip Dowds
year's perfectly good clothes with the more fashionable clothing of this
year? They won't buy computers, cameras or cars for which they do not
have the talent nor training to operate correctly? They won't purchase
CDs or DVDs in which they will maintain no lasting interest? They won't
own a house which is too big for them to keep clean by their own efforts?
Earning the money to buy the services of a cleaner is by their own
efforts. You do not do everything for yourself. Do you grow your own
food? Do you weave your own cloth. Did you created the car you drive
from scratch? Your distinctions indicate a clear bias against rich folks
who have more than you approve of.
Post by R Philip Dowds
OR ... Are you speaking of the natural physical limits of the planet?
That if folks like Mr Gore just bring them some information and make the
case, they will eventually understand that their consumption patterns
are unsustainable, and they will abandon these patterns?
Post by R Philip Dowds
I will repeat my earlier comment that you and Kolker both have an
elitist view; you both believe that you have risen above the "others";
in your case the unenlightened are greedy, in his, inferior and
envious.
I did not, and rarely ever, use the word "greedy" for much of anything.
I will, however, make clear my view that people in general are much
more attuned to short-term cost/benefit analysis than to long-term. See,
for instance, Mr Kolker's most recent reply.
Eat, Drink and be Merry. For tomorrow we die! After our deaths, what
should matter to us?
Post by R Philip Dowds
Post by R Philip Dowds
My own view is that the behaviors that we observe today are perfectly
rational in the context of too many (increasing) humans competing for
too few (decreasing) resources.
OK. I don't dispute your characterization of the context: increasing
population, decreasing resources. Could you be more explicit about how
our responsive behaviors are rational?
Rational means getting all you can before you die and not shortening
your life in the process.
Post by R Philip Dowds
What you are apparently unwilling to do
Post by R Philip Dowds
is consider the case where the parameters are different. Or, if you
have considered it, you are unwilling to present any justification for
your conclusions.
Sorry, not tracking here. Can you be more explicit?
Post by R Philip Dowds
Do you think that 7 million people living on the ECUSA would live in
sprawl? Come on, you must have taken a few urban planning courses at
some point.
Well, yes. Depending on how far inland you want to define "coastal",
roughly 80 mln people live on the East Coast of the USA. If you reduce
them to just 7 mln ... the survivors will still choose to live in single
family homes, on 1- to 5-acre lots. This is sprawl. But since you've
eliminated 73 mln people, it is less extensive sprawl. (Not clear,
however, how much resources the survivors would be willing to commit to
restoration of previously destroyed landscapes ...)
And yes, I did spend a couple years in the MIT Urban Studies department.
Ah ha! That explains it. You lived in the People's Republic of
Cambridge. I lived up near Lowell. The people their are more plebian. I
lived among the proles.

Bob Kolker
t***@earthlink.net
2006-07-07 13:11:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Philip Dowds
Post by R Philip Dowds
Post by R Philip Dowds
...
Well maybe. From what I've seen, (a) even with constant population
(hard to achieve), resources get used up, and are a declining balance.
And (b) most people are nowhere near consuming as much as they'd like to.
Quote
That sensible people know they can usefully and meaningful consume only
so much; that most people are sensible; and that a natural limit to
their appetites will kick in before serious permanent damage is done to
the biosphere.
End quote
My proposition of origin is *not* that people are "sensible", but that
they are rational. It doesn't matter if they "know" that they can only
"meaningfully" consume so much, it only matters that there is no
psychological defect that causes them to consume beyond what are
natural physical limits.
Natural physical limits ... of what? Of themselves? Meaning that they
won't eat more food than is good for them? They won't replace last
year's perfectly good clothes with the more fashionable clothing of this
year? They won't buy computers, cameras or cars for which they do not
have the talent nor training to operate correctly? They won't purchase
CDs or DVDs in which they will maintain no lasting interest? They won't
own a house which is too big for them to keep clean by their own efforts?
OR ... Are you speaking of the natural physical limits of the planet?
That if folks like Mr Gore just bring them some information and make the
case, they will eventually understand that their consumption patterns
are unsustainable, and they will abandon these patterns?
Post by R Philip Dowds
I will repeat my earlier comment that you and Kolker both have an
elitist view; you both believe that you have risen above the "others";
in your case the unenlightened are greedy, in his, inferior and
envious.
I did not, and rarely ever, use the word "greedy" for much of anything.
I will, however, make clear my view that people in general are much
more attuned to short-term cost/benefit analysis than to long-term.
See, for instance, Mr Kolker's most recent reply.
Post by R Philip Dowds
My own view is that the behaviors that we observe today are perfectly
rational in the context of too many (increasing) humans competing for
too few (decreasing) resources.
OK. I don't dispute your characterization of the context: increasing
population, decreasing resources. Could you be more explicit about how
our responsive behaviors are rational?
What you are apparently unwilling to do
Post by R Philip Dowds
is consider the case where the parameters are different. Or, if you
have considered it, you are unwilling to present any justification for
your conclusions.
Sorry, not tracking here. Can you be more explicit?
Post by R Philip Dowds
Do you think that 7 million people living on the ECUSA would live in
sprawl? Come on, you must have taken a few urban planning courses at
some point.
Well, yes. Depending on how far inland you want to define "coastal",
roughly 80 mln people live on the East Coast of the USA. If you reduce
them to just 7 mln ... the survivors will still choose to live in single
family homes, on 1- to 5-acre lots. This is sprawl. But since you've
eliminated 73 mln people, it is less extensive sprawl. (Not clear,
however, how much resources the survivors would be willing to commit to
restoration of previously destroyed landscapes ...)
Good point about cleaning up the godawful mess we've already made. But
let's see if talking about this scenario will help clarify what I mean
by rational.

You say

"... will still choose to live in single family homes, on 1- to 5-acre
lots. This is sprawl.",

and I say---why?

If there are 7 million people ECUSA, then people can live anywhere they
like.

Your theory is that people will "sprawl", perhaps because you observe
that most people choose to live that way now.

My theory is that people will make optimal use of geography, by having
an urban dwelling as well as a weekend/vacation dwelling. The evidence
for my theory is that wealthy people tend to do that---e.g. an
apartment in NYC and a house in 'The Hamptons.'

The difference is that most people *now* don't have what wealthy people
have---the ability to live anywhere they like. Your data is simply not
appropriate to my scenario. Sprawl is a rational response to *current*
conditions; in addition to racism, people move out of cities because
they can get more space, better schools, less crime, and so on. Those
who can afford to live in luxury apartments in Manhattan don't,
because they get all those things *and* it is convenient to where they
work, *and* there is more entertainment and other services.

(I assume you will recognize that having a vacation home doesn't
produce anywhere near the environmental degradation that
suburbs+commuting does.)

The point of this example is, once again, that you can't apply lessons
from a world of growing population and shrinking resources to one in
which there is abundance and stability. There is no genetic
predisposition among humans to live in a cultural wasteland and spend
2+ hours a day stuck in traffic.

-tg
Post by R Philip Dowds
And yes, I did spend a couple years in the MIT Urban Studies department.
RPD / Cambridge
Facts can be your friends if you treat them right.
R Philip Dowds
2006-07-08 10:36:35 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by t***@earthlink.net
Post by R Philip Dowds
Post by t***@earthlink.net
Do you think that 7 million people living on the ECUSA would live in
sprawl? Come on, you must have taken a few urban planning courses at
some point.
Well, yes. Depending on how far inland you want to define "coastal",
roughly 80 mln people live on the East Coast of the USA. If you reduce
them to just 7 mln ... the survivors will still choose to live in single
family homes, on 1- to 5-acre lots. This is sprawl. But since you've
eliminated 73 mln people, it is less extensive sprawl. (Not clear,
however, how much resources the survivors would be willing to commit to
restoration of previously destroyed landscapes ...)
Good point about cleaning up the godawful mess we've already made. But
let's see if talking about this scenario will help clarify what I mean
by rational.
You say
"... will still choose to live in single family homes, on 1- to 5-acre
lots. This is sprawl.",
and I say---why?
If there are 7 million people ECUSA, then people can live anywhere they
like.
Your theory is that people will "sprawl", perhaps because you observe
that most people choose to live that way now.
My theory is that people will make optimal use of geography, by having
an urban dwelling as well as a weekend/vacation dwelling. The evidence
for my theory is that wealthy people tend to do that---e.g. an
apartment in NYC and a house in 'The Hamptons.'
The difference is that most people *now* don't have what wealthy people
have---the ability to live anywhere they like. Your data is simply not
appropriate to my scenario. Sprawl is a rational response to *current*
conditions; in addition to racism, people move out of cities because
they can get more space, better schools, less crime, and so on. Those
who can afford to live in luxury apartments in Manhattan don't,
because they get all those things *and* it is convenient to where they
work, *and* there is more entertainment and other services.
(I assume you will recognize that having a vacation home doesn't
produce anywhere near the environmental degradation that
suburbs+commuting does.)
The point of this example is, once again, that you can't apply lessons
from a world of growing population and shrinking resources to one in
which there is abundance and stability. There is no genetic
predisposition among humans to live in a cultural wasteland and spend
2+ hours a day stuck in traffic.
-tg
...

OK, I will concede: If the east coast population were reduced by an
order of magnitude, then all bets are off. Everything would be
different. Scientists, sociologists, and psychiatrists could speculate
at great length as to how different. In fact, science fiction writers
do this kind of speculation all the time. Which reminds me ...

Once we perfect teleportation, traffic congestion will be a thing of the
past, and the interstate highway system can be a huge skateboard park.

I feel much more hopeful about the future now.

RPD / Cambridge
Pray for the plague.
Robert Kolker
2006-07-08 13:12:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Philip Dowds
do this kind of speculation all the time. Which reminds me ...
Once we perfect teleportation, traffic congestion will be a thing of the
past, and the interstate highway system can be a huge skateboard park.
Yodah says: Do not hold your breath, Young Phillip until mass
teleportation invented is, else blue turn you will. Cows will piss
gasoline and angels will fly out of your arse before we have
teleportation. The best we can do at present is to tranfer quantum
states from hither to yon.

Bob Kolker
t***@earthlink.net
2006-07-08 14:51:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Philip Dowds
...
Post by t***@earthlink.net
Post by R Philip Dowds
Post by t***@earthlink.net
Do you think that 7 million people living on the ECUSA would live in
sprawl? Come on, you must have taken a few urban planning courses at
some point.
Well, yes. Depending on how far inland you want to define "coastal",
roughly 80 mln people live on the East Coast of the USA. If you reduce
them to just 7 mln ... the survivors will still choose to live in single
family homes, on 1- to 5-acre lots. This is sprawl. But since you've
eliminated 73 mln people, it is less extensive sprawl. (Not clear,
however, how much resources the survivors would be willing to commit to
restoration of previously destroyed landscapes ...)
Good point about cleaning up the godawful mess we've already made. But
let's see if talking about this scenario will help clarify what I mean
by rational.
You say
"... will still choose to live in single family homes, on 1- to 5-acre
lots. This is sprawl.",
and I say---why?
If there are 7 million people ECUSA, then people can live anywhere they
like.
Your theory is that people will "sprawl", perhaps because you observe
that most people choose to live that way now.
My theory is that people will make optimal use of geography, by having
an urban dwelling as well as a weekend/vacation dwelling. The evidence
for my theory is that wealthy people tend to do that---e.g. an
apartment in NYC and a house in 'The Hamptons.'
The difference is that most people *now* don't have what wealthy people
have---the ability to live anywhere they like. Your data is simply not
appropriate to my scenario. Sprawl is a rational response to *current*
conditions; in addition to racism, people move out of cities because
they can get more space, better schools, less crime, and so on. Those
who can afford to live in luxury apartments in Manhattan don't,
because they get all those things *and* it is convenient to where they
work, *and* there is more entertainment and other services.
(I assume you will recognize that having a vacation home doesn't
produce anywhere near the environmental degradation that
suburbs+commuting does.)
The point of this example is, once again, that you can't apply lessons
from a world of growing population and shrinking resources to one in
which there is abundance and stability. There is no genetic
predisposition among humans to live in a cultural wasteland and spend
2+ hours a day stuck in traffic.
-tg
...
OK, I will concede: If the east coast population were reduced by an
order of magnitude, then all bets are off. Everything would be
different. Scientists, sociologists, and psychiatrists could speculate
at great length as to how different. In fact, science fiction writers
do this kind of speculation all the time. Which reminds me ...
I've identified my scenarios as sci-fi-like any number of times. But
the point of it is to stop thinking in the box and stop repeating
conventional wisdoms that aren't true.

Try two current options:

1) Spend time and resources trying to convince people to have less
pleasant lives by reducing their consumption.

2) Spend time and resources trying to convince people to have more
pleasant lives by reducing their birth rate.

I opt for 2) since I observe that people who have a choice already
reduce birth rate, but not consumption.

My scenario supports the idea that if you do 2), individual consumption
will decrease as well.

-tg
Post by R Philip Dowds
Once we perfect teleportation, traffic congestion will be a thing of the
past, and the interstate highway system can be a huge skateboard park.
I feel much more hopeful about the future now.
RPD / Cambridge
Pray for the plague.
R Philip Dowds
2006-07-08 16:38:28 UTC
Permalink
***@earthlink.net wrote:
...
Post by t***@earthlink.net
I've identified my scenarios as sci-fi-like any number of times. But
the point of it is to stop thinking in the box and stop repeating
conventional wisdoms that aren't true.
1) Spend time and resources trying to convince people to have less
pleasant lives by reducing their consumption.
2) Spend time and resources trying to convince people to have more
pleasant lives by reducing their birth rate.
I opt for 2) since I observe that people who have a choice already
reduce birth rate, but not consumption.
My scenario supports the idea that if you do 2), individual consumption
will decrease as well.
-tg
...

Having observed that world around me seems crippled by a dead flat
learning curve, I grow ever more cautious in trying to convince anyone
of anything. However, I think the right answers are 1) and 2): Even if
we wave the sci fi wand, and stabilize world population at 6 billion, we
are still not on a sustainable path without important changes in
production / consumption patterns.

RPD / Cambridge
Facts can be your friends if you treat them right.

Robert Kolker
2006-07-01 18:13:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Philip Dowds
OK, I get it. Since reaching for infinity is by definition impossible
and unachievable (ie, "absurd"), nobody actually does this, even if they
so desire. Do I detect a tautology here? (Perhaps we could agree that
the needs and wants of many or most people are endless, not infinite.)
When they die (as they must) their wants end.

When will you stop being sloppy in speech and thought?

You are just pissed off that someone wants (and can get) more than you
ever will in you lifetime.

Some people are rich, some are not. You are not rich. Get used to it.

Bob Kolker
R Philip Dowds
2006-06-27 01:20:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by R Philip Dowds
And, what makes a business grow? More customers! And what creates
more customers? Pregnant women! Population growth is the bedrock of
the capitalist model.
Also people buying more goods and services, or more expensive goods and
services. In either case the amount of money spent increases with a
population increase.
A number of people buying more and more value added stuff will produce
economic growth.
Bob Kolker
You ignored my comment about the stable state, but yes, a fixed number
of people can induce an increase in per capita GDP (call it "growth") by
producing and consuming more per capita. But it's pretty feeble growth
compared to a rapidly advancing population count. Contrast Las Vegas,
growing at an astonishing 4% a year, to Boston, which lost 30,000 people
last year. Which city is the success? And which is stagnating?
Where's the investment money headed? Why is Boston so upset to learn
that it's actually starting to bring its population problem under control?

We need a paradigm shift here. And don't expect it to come from the
free market.

RPD / Cambridge
Facts can be your friends if you treat them right.
'foolsrushin.'
2006-07-01 04:17:14 UTC
Permalink
Indeed, though you may also be able to increase resources (most of our
world is empty in this sense) or waste less! As I am sure you would
agree the dear Rev. Malthus got it wrong, and also the Club of Rome and
various others according to whom most of us are dead now!
Post by R Philip Dowds
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by R Philip Dowds
And, what makes a business grow? More customers! And what creates
more customers? Pregnant women! Population growth is the bedrock of
the capitalist model.
Also people buying more goods and services, or more expensive goods and
services. In either case the amount of money spent increases with a
population increase.
A number of people buying more and more value added stuff will produce
economic growth.
Bob Kolker
You ignored my comment about the stable state, but yes, a fixed number
of people can induce an increase in per capita GDP (call it "growth") by
producing and consuming more per capita. But it's pretty feeble growth
compared to a rapidly advancing population count. Contrast Las Vegas,
growing at an astonishing 4% a year, to Boston, which lost 30,000 people
last year. Which city is the success? And which is stagnating?
Where's the investment money headed? Why is Boston so upset to learn
that it's actually starting to bring its population problem under control?
We need a paradigm shift here. And don't expect it to come from the
free market.
RPD / Cambridge
Facts can be your friends if you treat them right.
--
'foolsrushin.'
Robert Kolker
2006-07-01 18:12:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'foolsrushin.'
Indeed, though you may also be able to increase resources (most of our
world is empty in this sense) or waste less! As I am sure you would
agree the dear Rev. Malthus got it wrong, and also the Club of Rome and
various others according to whom most of us are dead now!
The CoR computer model proves that we are living in the world of
-Soylent Green-. How can you doubt it?

The Club of Rome claimed the sky was falling. Perhaps some day it will fall.

Bob Kolker
j***@yahoo.com
2006-06-26 16:59:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Philip Dowds
The problem is, capitalist market theory can understand only growth.
That seems something of a bit of a "gross generalization".
Japan is a capitalist market country, no?
Post by R Philip Dowds
PS: Incidentally, food and water are not yet a problem in the US.
Right now ...
however here in California, we have water shortages
every couple of years.

It will probably happen more often, as the population of
California grows from the current approx. 30 million to the 60 million
they say it will ... and beyond of course ... until? We hit the wall.

Up until this year, the "sky is falling" types were saying
that California will have a lot more draughts due to global warming.

Now after a record year of rain, the Global Warming true believers are
claiming that that is what they've always said will happen, and that it
is also a
terrible thing.

Although I think if California is going to grow as much as they say
it will ... and there is not much to stop it except the National Guard,
then we better hope that global warming will give us record rain fall
ever year.

Or maybe technology and engineering will save us ... we can build
aquaducts from Washington State to California ... or maybe from the
Great Lakes? Those would be engineering projects like what have
never been seen on earth.
Alan
2006-06-26 17:15:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Up until this year, the "sky is falling" types were saying
that California will have a lot more draughts due to global warming.
I've heard of hot weather making us thirsty, but didn't realize the
correlation of global warming to beer consumption <g>

Anyway, it is ironic, isn't it, that generally, the countries with the
highest standard of living also enjoy extremely low birth rates. (?)


Alan
Sgt.Sausage
2006-06-28 07:48:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by arminius
Population growth is lauded by sleazy business interests to include
developers, realtors, agribusiness, and all the greedy bastards who put a
profit ahead of the national interest.
Why is an increasing population that remains withing the bearing capacity
of the country against national interest? Food is no problem, and with
proper management water is no problem. So what is the problem?
Bob Kolker
I *seriously* question those assumptions. While, in theory, they may be
"no problem" -- but sustainability is certainly a problem. What exactly
is the maximum carrying capacity and how did you arrive at that number?

Sorry, but I'm hardcore Malthusian on this one. Temporary successes
due to what amounts to a bit of luck in upping food production for a
few decades do not invalidate his central thesis.

I'm not half as worried about "peak oil" as I am about "peak food". Sooner
or later, we're gonna get hungry. All of us. Then the dying starts.
Robert Kolker
2006-06-28 14:09:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sgt.Sausage
I'm not half as worried about "peak oil" as I am about "peak food". Sooner
or later, we're gonna get hungry. All of us. Then the dying starts.
The U.S. produces enough food to support twice the population. That is
why we export so much of it. Overweight is a national problem. This
indicates that starvation is NOT a national problem.

If worse comes to worse, we can slaughter and pickle our poor to feed
the rest.

Read -A Modest Proposal- by Jonathan Swift.

Bob Kolker
unknown
2006-06-28 14:07:25 UTC
Permalink
...Overweight is a national problem. This
indicates that starvation is NOT a national problem.
Actually, fat people can be malnourished at the same time.
Robert Kolker
2006-06-28 15:46:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
...Overweight is a national problem. This
indicates that starvation is NOT a national problem.
Actually, fat people can be malnourished at the same time.
That is possible. But malnourished people are malnourished because they
are stupid, not because food is unavailable.

Bob Kolker
Ron Peterson
2006-06-28 19:07:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by unknown
Actually, fat people can be malnourished at the same time.
That is possible. But malnourished people are malnourished because they
are stupid, not because food is unavailable.
That may be the case in the US, but the world's supply of seafood is
limited and even in the US, people don't eat enough of it to get the
omega-3 fatty acids they need.

The omega-3 fatty acid (ALA) in flax seeds is not efficiently converted
to the right types (EPA, DHA) needed by the human body.
--
Ron
Robert Kolker
2006-06-28 20:14:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron Peterson
That may be the case in the US, but the world's supply of seafood is
limited and even in the US, people don't eat enough of it to get the
omega-3 fatty acids they need.
There are enough fish for anyone who wishes to eat fish. Most fish are
now raised on fish farms, so the supply is not adversely affected by
overshipping off the George's Bank.

Also the local supermarket sells flash frozen fish from south america
and vietnam along with the domestically farm produced fish. As I said,
malnutrition in the U.S. has more to do with stupidity and ignorance
than lack of food.

Bob Kolker
unknown
2006-06-29 12:10:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kolker
There are enough fish for anyone who wishes to eat fish.
As long as they don't mind the mercury toxicity ...
Post by Robert Kolker
... As I said,
malnutrition in the U.S. has more to do with stupidity and ignorance
than lack of food.
You are wrong, perhaps due to your own stupidity/ignorance.

http://www.healthcentral.com/ency/408/000404.html
Robert Kolker
2006-06-29 14:11:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
You are wrong, perhaps due to your own stupidity/ignorance.
Point out one instance where nourishing food cannot be gotten, even as
charity. The local churches will provide good meals for the needy. If a
person -really needs- food he can get it at no cost to him beyond
begging, debasing himself, blubbering and swallowing his pride.

Bob Kolker
unknown
2006-06-29 14:34:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kolker
Point out one instance where nourishing food cannot be gotten
They aren't growing food crops for nourishment anymore.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-12/uota-ssn120104.php

You imagine quantity would be a substitute for quality, but
when it comes to nutrition, that's simply not true.
Post by Robert Kolker
There are enough fish for anyone who wishes to eat fish.
As long as they don't mind the mercury toxicity ...
Post by Robert Kolker
... As I said,
malnutrition in the U.S. has more to do with stupidity and ignorance
than lack of food.
You are wrong, perhaps due to your own stupidity/ignorance.

http://www.healthcentral.com/ency/408/000404.html
Alan
2006-06-29 14:47:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
You are wrong, perhaps due to your own stupidity/ignorance.
US, you're about as diplomatic as bush. Sometimes your arguments are good,
but then you end up discrediting yourself with comments like the one above.
Boring.

Alan
unknown
2006-06-29 14:52:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan
US, you're about as diplomatic as
Irrelevant.

Had you anything besides fallacy?

Too bad for you that you don't.
Post by Alan
Point out one instance where nourishing food cannot be gotten
They aren't growing food crops for nourishment anymore.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-12/uota-ssn120104.php

You imagine quantity would be a substitute for quality, but
when it comes to nutrition, that's simply not true.
Post by Alan
There are enough fish for anyone who wishes to eat fish.
As long as they don't mind the mercury toxicity ...
Post by Alan
... As I said,
malnutrition in the U.S. has more to do with stupidity and ignorance
than lack of food.
You are wrong, perhaps due to your own stupidity/ignorance.

http://www.healthcentral.com/ency/408/000404.html
Alan
2006-06-29 14:58:00 UTC
Permalink
--
Post by unknown
Post by Alan
US, you're about as diplomatic as
Irrelevant.
Why is it irrelevant? Aren't you trying to earn supporters for your POV, or
are you just trolling?

Alan
Post by unknown
Had you anything besides fallacy?
Too bad for you that you don't.
Post by Alan
Point out one instance where nourishing food cannot be gotten
They aren't growing food crops for nourishment anymore.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-12/uota-ssn120104.php
You imagine quantity would be a substitute for quality, but
when it comes to nutrition, that's simply not true.
Post by Alan
There are enough fish for anyone who wishes to eat fish.
As long as they don't mind the mercury toxicity ...
Post by Alan
... As I said,
malnutrition in the U.S. has more to do with stupidity and ignorance
than lack of food.
You are wrong, perhaps due to your own stupidity/ignorance.
http://www.healthcentral.com/ency/408/000404.html
unknown
2006-06-29 15:17:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan
Why is it irrelevant?
It's a mere ad hominem fallacy which has nothing whatsoever
to do with the subject.
Post by Alan
Aren't you trying to earn supporters for your POV, or
are you just trolling?
Alan
Perhaps ad hominem fallacy, in this case based on an illogical
false dichotomy, is all you have.

You may not have been properly nourished so as to form a
fully functional nervous system.
Post by Alan
US, you're about as diplomatic as
Irrelevant.

Had you anything besides fallacy?

Too bad for you that you don't.
Post by Alan
Point out one instance where nourishing food cannot be gotten
They aren't growing food crops for nourishment anymore.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-12/uota-ssn120104.php

You imagine quantity would be a substitute for quality, but
when it comes to nutrition, that's simply not true.
Post by Alan
There are enough fish for anyone who wishes to eat fish.
As long as they don't mind the mercury toxicity ...
Post by Alan
... As I said,
malnutrition in the U.S. has more to do with stupidity and ignorance
than lack of food.
You are wrong, perhaps due to your own stupidity/ignorance.

http://www.healthcentral.com/ency/408/000404.html
Alan
2006-06-29 15:42:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
You may not have been properly nourished so as to form a
fully functional nervous system.
Nice example of an ad hominen statement. Right up there with
"stupid/ignorant".

Alan
unknown
2006-06-29 20:35:30 UTC
Permalink
... an ad hominen [sic] statement.
Well you have those and now a tu quoque.

It's all still irrelevant.

Perhaps you don't understand because you're
lacking nutrients.
Right up there with
"stupid/ignorant".
Take it up with Kolker: it's his terminology,
misapplied as it was, and all.
Why is it irrelevant?
It's a mere ad hominem fallacy which has nothing whatsoever
to do with the subject.
Aren't you trying to earn supporters for your POV, or
are you just trolling?
Alan
Perhaps ad hominem fallacy, in this case based on an illogical
false dichotomy, is all you have.

You may not have been properly nourished so as to form a
fully functional nervous system.
US, you're about as diplomatic as
Irrelevant.

Had you anything besides fallacy?

Too bad for you that you don't.
Point out one instance where nourishing food cannot be gotten
They aren't growing food crops for nourishment anymore.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-12/uota-ssn120104.php

You imagine quantity would be a substitute for quality, but
when it comes to nutrition, that's simply not true.
There are enough fish for anyone who wishes to eat fish.
As long as they don't mind the mercury toxicity ...
... As I said,
malnutrition in the U.S. has more to do with stupidity and ignorance
than lack of food.
You are wrong, perhaps due to your own stupidity/ignorance.

http://www.healthcentral.com/ency/408/000404.html
Robert Kolker
2006-06-30 00:22:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by Robert Kolker
Point out one instance where nourishing food cannot be gotten
They aren't growing food crops for nourishment anymore.
Utter nonsense. Supermarkets have fresh vegitables and fruit. There are
the ingredients for making bread, including whole wheat flour and rye.
There is meat and fish. All basic and good food. Just stay away from the
packaged shit and make what you eat from scratch or nearly so. In
addition one can get soybeans (very nourishing) in either raw form,
fibre or tofu. All protein, not an ounce of fat.

Vegitables art plentiful and cheap in season at roadside produce stands.
One can get tomatoes (big, juicy let the fully ripen), corn, lettuce,
beans. There are also a variety of berries which are very nutritious.
Nutritious food can be had everywhere and rather cheaply (in season).
Out of season one can do home caning for winter time. Just use glass
jars and tight seals. They will keep all winter even unrefrigerated.

The supermarkets are briming with raw produce and high quality flour.
The meat is very good. The fish, fresh and full of omega-3 oil. If one
is careful about removing the skin and fat, chicken is very good and
nutritious.

As I said, the only thing standing between a consumer and good
inexpensive food is stupidity or ignorance.

Bob Kolker
unknown
2006-06-30 02:37:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kolker
Utter nonsense.
It's all you have. What a shame you can't
click the links I've provided and learn.

Perhaps your deficiency is due to longterm
malnourishment affecting your brain.
Post by Robert Kolker
... vegitables [sic]...
Vegitables [sic]...
The word is "vegetables", and when they're
grown in deficient soils, they, too, are then
thusly deficient.
Post by Robert Kolker
... stupidity or ignorance.
Bob Kolker
You can go with either excuse.
Post by Robert Kolker
Point out one instance where nourishing food cannot be gotten
They aren't growing food crops for nourishment anymore.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-12/uota-ssn120104.php

You imagine quantity would be a substitute for quality, but
when it comes to nutrition, that's simply not true.
Post by Robert Kolker
There are enough fish for anyone who wishes to eat fish.
As long as they don't mind the mercury toxicity ...
Post by Robert Kolker
... As I said,
malnutrition in the U.S. has more to do with stupidity and ignorance
than lack of food.
You are wrong, perhaps due to your own stupidity/ignorance.

http://www.healthcentral.com/ency/408/000404.html
unknown
2006-06-29 12:08:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by unknown
...Overweight is a national problem. This
indicates that starvation is NOT a national problem.
Actually, fat people can be malnourished at the same time.
That is possible.
Actually, it's likely.
Post by Robert Kolker
But malnourished people are malnourished because they
are stupid, not because food is unavailable.
Is that your excuse for being mistaken in that statement?

http://www.newstarget.com/006194.html
Robert Kolker
2006-06-29 14:09:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Is that your excuse for being mistaken in that statement?
Malnutrition is a matter of wisdom or lack of it, in this country, not
because food is unavailable. We have several times as much food in this
country to feed our population nutritiously as we need. Food has never
been a problem in this country except in very temporary circumstances,
like the starvation of the Donner Pass party.

In this country, anyone who is malnourished is either stupid, igorant or
the child of negligent care givers. There is no need to be malnourished.
This is not Somalia or the Serrengetti.

Bob Kolker
unknown
2006-06-29 14:43:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kolker
Malnutrition is a matter of wisdom or lack of it
No, it's a matter of food quality.

Kids can't even get clean water to drink.

The foods provided to them aren't as nutritious
as they should be.

"...so many of the popular food products sold in
grocery stores all over the country and around the
world actually deplete the body of B vitamins..."

http://www.newstarget.com/006194.html
Post by Robert Kolker
...We have several times as much food in this
country to feed our population nutritiously as we need.
Why would anyone imagine that?

Oh, that's right, you've confused quantity for quality.

Not only is the water/food of low quality, it's contaminated.
Post by Robert Kolker
... either stupid, igorant or
the child of negligent care givers...
Bob Kolker
So that explains it.
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by unknown
...Overweight is a national problem. This
indicates that starvation is NOT a national problem.
Actually, fat people can be malnourished at the same time.
That is possible.
Actually, it's likely.
Post by Robert Kolker
But malnourished people are malnourished because they
are stupid, not because food is unavailable.
Is that your excuse for being mistaken in that statement?

http://www.newstarget.com/006194.html
Robert Kolker
2006-06-30 00:24:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by Robert Kolker
Malnutrition is a matter of wisdom or lack of it
No, it's a matter of food quality.
Kids can't even get clean water to drink.
Boil it.
Post by unknown
The foods provided to them aren't as nutritious
as they should be.
Nonsense, as I have pointed out in another post.
Post by unknown
"...so many of the popular food products sold in
grocery stores all over the country and around the
world actually deplete the body of B vitamins..."
They do not. Get fresh produce. It won't deplete anything. One can also
get, very inexpensively, vitamine suppliments if required.
Even the poor can get practically for free cheeses (lots of protein,
powdered milk, just add water, canned tomatoes and peas and beans. This
will be sufficiently nutritious.

Bob Kolker
unknown
2006-06-30 02:38:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kolker
Boil it.
That doesn't actually clean up certain very-relevant
forms of pollution.
Post by Robert Kolker
Nonsense, as I have ...
It's all you have.
Post by Robert Kolker
Malnutrition is a matter of wisdom or lack of it
No, it's a matter of food quality.

Kids can't even get clean water to drink.

The foods provided to them aren't as nutritious
as they should be.

"...so many of the popular food products sold in
grocery stores all over the country and around the
world actually deplete the body of B vitamins..."

http://www.newstarget.com/006194.html
Post by Robert Kolker
...We have several times as much food in this
country to feed our population nutritiously as we need.
Why would anyone imagine that?

Oh, that's right, you've confused quantity for quality.

Not only is the water/food of low quality, it's contaminated.
Post by Robert Kolker
... either stupid, igorant or
the child of negligent care givers...
Bob Kolker
So that explains it.
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by unknown
...Overweight is a national problem. This
indicates that starvation is NOT a national problem.
Actually, fat people can be malnourished at the same time.
That is possible.
Actually, it's likely.
Post by Robert Kolker
But malnourished people are malnourished because they
are stupid, not because food is unavailable.
Is that your excuse for being mistaken in that statement?

http://www.newstarget.com/006194.html
spiced-ham? (Alphonso M'buto Chiang)
2006-06-30 03:26:11 UTC
Permalink
In article <HIudnSZuOsTeTD7ZnZ2dnUVZ_r-***@comcast.com>, ***@nowhere.com
says...
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by unknown
Is that your excuse for being mistaken in that statement?
Malnutrition is a matter of wisdom or lack of it, in this country, not
because food is unavailable. We have several times as much food in this
country to feed our population nutritiously as we need. Food has never
been a problem in this country except in very temporary circumstances,
like the starvation of the Donner Pass party.
In this country, anyone who is malnourished is either stupid, igorant or
the child of negligent care givers. There is no need to be malnourished.
This is not Somalia or the Serrengetti.
Bob Kolker
How do I get this free food you seem to be implying is available?
Marinus van der Lubbe
2006-06-30 04:50:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by spiced-ham? (Alphonso Mbuto Chiang)
says...
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by unknown
Is that your excuse for being mistaken in that statement?
Malnutrition is a matter of wisdom or lack of it, in this country, not
because food is unavailable. We have several times as much food in this
country to feed our population nutritiously as we need. Food has never
been a problem in this country except in very temporary circumstances,
like the starvation of the Donner Pass party.
In this country, anyone who is malnourished is either stupid, igorant or
the child of negligent care givers. There is no need to be malnourished.
This is not Somalia or the Serrengetti.
Bob Kolker
How do I get this free food you seem to be implying is available?
That is easy, just go to your community farm and grow your own.

http://www.boingboing.net/2006/06/13/las_south_central_fa.html

Oh, wait, you'll also need a time machine.
Robert Kolker
2006-06-30 16:32:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by spiced-ham? (Alphonso M'buto Chiang)
How do I get this free food you seem to be implying is available?
Wear rags, blubber and whine, go to a church poor person's pantry. There
are churches in every city and state that will feed the destitute. As
long as the look and act pathetic enough, they will be fed. Also, bring
the children. The hungry child ploy always works. The government might
not help you, but charitable Christians will.

Bob Kolker
unknown
2006-06-30 20:22:54 UTC
Permalink
It doesn't matter how much inadequate material
you stuff into a person's stomach, it won't be a
fit substitute for proper nutrition.
zzbunker
2006-06-30 05:18:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kolker
Post by arminius
Population growth is lauded by sleazy business interests to include
developers, realtors, agribusiness, and all the greedy bastards who put a
profit ahead of the national interest.
Why is an increasing population that remains withing the bearing
capacity of the country against national interest? Food is no problem,
and with proper management water is no problem. So what is the problem?
Well, for onr reason the US is lead by idiots
like IBM, GM, and Boing, Jimmy Carter, Teddy Kennedy, Bill
Clinton, and Al Gore.

The fucking morons belong in Eqypt, not the US.
Post by Robert Kolker
Bob Kolker
Steve Silberberg
2006-06-30 13:56:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by zzbunker
Well, for onr reason the US is lead by idiots
Jimmy Carter
Jimmy Carter is definitely the problem. Not to mention John F.
Kennedy, Warren Harding, Rutheford B. Hayes, and William Henry
Harrison.

The administration that has been in power for the most recent 6 years
isn't the problem however, it's that idiot Millard Fillmore.
--------------
Steve Silberberg
mailto:***@alum.mit.edu
Read "We'll Kiss For Food"
http://www.kissforfood.com/
z***@netscape.net
2006-06-30 14:57:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Silberberg
Post by zzbunker
Well, for onr reason the US is lead by idiots
Jimmy Carter
Jimmy Carter is definitely the problem. Not to mention John F.
Kennedy, Warren Harding, Rutheford B. Hayes, and William Henry
Harrison.
The administration that has been in power for the most recent 6 years
isn't the problem however, it's that idiot Millard Fillmore.
You're brilliant. I hope MIT gave you a degree in Chomskian moron
Government Systems,, rather than a real degree.

That way you have IBM job potential -- in The Congo.
Post by Steve Silberberg
--------------
Steve Silberberg
Read "We'll Kiss For Food"
http://www.kissforfood.com/
Steve Silberberg
2006-06-30 22:04:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by z***@netscape.net
You're brilliant. I hope MIT gave you a degree in Chomskian moron
Government Systems,, rather than a real degree.
That way you have IBM job potential -- in The Congo.
Sorry you're jealous that I graduated from MIT and you didn't. That's
OK, I'm sure whatever school you went to was pretty good.
--------------
Steve Silberberg
mailto:***@alum.mit.edu
Read "We'll Kiss For Food"
http://www.kissforfood.com/
z***@netscape.net
2006-07-01 04:03:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Silberberg
Post by z***@netscape.net
You're brilliant. I hope MIT gave you a degree in Chomskian moron
Government Systems,, rather than a real degree.
That way you have IBM job potential -- in The Congo.
Sorry you're jealous that I graduated from MIT and you didn't. That's
OK, I'm sure whatever school you went to was pretty good.
MIters have always said that to everybody, but to date
the only people who have ever believed them i-s
French E-Coli Techers.
Post by Steve Silberberg
--------------
Steve Silberberg
Read "We'll Kiss For Food"
http://www.kissforfood.com/
'foolsrushin.'
2006-07-01 04:31:41 UTC
Permalink
You both sound like really great guys: would be nice if you stopped
getting cross and got back on track: maybe 9/11.
--
All the best to you both,
'foolsrushin.'
Post by z***@netscape.net
Post by Steve Silberberg
Post by z***@netscape.net
You're brilliant. I hope MIT gave you a degree in Chomskian moron
Government Systems,, rather than a real degree.
That way you have IBM job potential -- in The Congo.
Sorry you're jealous that I graduated from MIT and you didn't. That's
OK, I'm sure whatever school you went to was pretty good.
MIters have always said that to everybody, but to date
the only people who have ever believed them i-s
French E-Coli Techers.
Post by Steve Silberberg
--------------
Steve Silberberg
Read "We'll Kiss For Food"
http://www.kissforfood.com/
'foolsrushin.'
2006-07-01 20:44:38 UTC
Permalink
No-one CAN know for sure Suppose you were the last person on Earth!. To
whom would you report? Nevil Shute's 'On the Beach' confronts the
problem head on. Everyone takes his own life - almost as a final act of
defiance!
--
'foolsrushin.'
'Minus One' is one imagines, the final report!
Post by arminius
June 25, 2006, 6:18 AM EDT
WASHINGTON -- The U.S. population is on target to hit 300 million this
fall and it's a good bet the milestone baby -- or immigrant -- will be
Hispanic.
No one will know for sure because the date and time will be just an
estimate.
But Latinos -- immigrants and those born in this country -- are driving
the population growth, accounting for almost half the increase last
year, more than any other ethnic or racial group.
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-300-million-milestone,0,2357445.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines
Population growth is lauded by sleazy business interests to include
developers, realtors, agribusiness, and all the greedy bastards who put a
profit ahead of the national interest.
Hank
Robert Kolker
2006-07-02 00:57:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by arminius
Population growth is lauded by sleazy business interests to include
developers, realtors, agribusiness, and all the greedy bastards who put a
profit ahead of the national interest.
Making an honest profit is as American as July 4. Making a dishonest
profit is as American as July 4.

Bob Kolker
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