Using livestock permethrin on clothing?

[trailshark]

The permethrin sprays for treating clothing are 6 ounces of 0.5%
solution for about $6. I just noticed today that our local livestock
supplier has 10% livestock solution (10% permethrin, 90% "inert
ingredients") for only $12 a quart. That's enough to fill a 5-gallon
bucket after dilution to 0.5% permethrin!

Before I poison myself, has anyone used this stuff (one of the livestock
formulations) on gear or clothing and lived to tell about it? How well
did it work against mosquitoes, and how long did it last before you had
to repeat the treatment?

[Wayne]

Post by trailshark
The permethrin sprays for treating clothing are 6 ounces of 0.5%
solution for about $6. I just noticed today that our local livestock
supplier has 10% livestock solution (10% permethrin, 90% "inert
ingredients") for only $12 a quart. That's enough to fill a 5-gallon
bucket after dilution to 0.5% permethrin!
Before I poison myself, has anyone used this stuff (one of the livestock
formulations) on gear or clothing and lived to tell about it? How well
did it work against mosquitoes, and how long did it last before you had
to repeat the treatment?

I haven't used livestock solution, but I did use the garden stuff from Home
Depot. I forget how much I bought (probably a quart), but after dilution
you have much more than 6 ounces. I bought a garden pesticide squeeze
sprayer at the same time, and use it only for spraying clothing. To treat
clothing, I hang the items on hangers outside, and spray with the squeeze
bottle, and let them dry.

Premethrin did seem to work as far as keeping bugs from biting through or
getting on clothing, but it doesn't "repel" bugs not on the clothing. Thus,
you will still need typical repellent (not premethrin) bug spray/lotion for
exposed skin. However, you will need much less bug spray/lotion on skin,
if you can cover up with premethrin treated clothing. I usually treat the
clothing once per year, assuming that the gear isn't used for more than
10-20 washings.

[y_p_w]

Post by Wayne

Post by trailshark
The permethrin sprays for treating clothing are 6 ounces of 0.5%
solution for about $6. I just noticed today that our local livestock
supplier has 10% livestock solution (10% permethrin, 90% "inert
ingredients") for only $12 a quart. That's enough to fill a 5-gallon
bucket after dilution to 0.5% permethrin!
Before I poison myself, has anyone used this stuff (one of the livestock
formulations) on gear or clothing and lived to tell about it? How well
did it work against mosquitoes, and how long did it last before you had
to repeat the treatment?

I haven't used livestock solution, but I did use the garden stuff from Home
Depot. I forget how much I bought (probably a quart), but after dilution
you have much more than 6 ounces. I bought a garden pesticide squeeze
sprayer at the same time, and use it only for spraying clothing. To treat
clothing, I hang the items on hangers outside, and spray with the squeeze
bottle, and let them dry.
Premethrin did seem to work as far as keeping bugs from biting through or
getting on clothing, but it doesn't "repel" bugs not on the clothing. Thus,
you will still need typical repellent (not premethrin) bug spray/lotion for
exposed skin. However, you will need much less bug spray/lotion on skin,
if you can cover up with premethrin treated clothing. I usually treat the
clothing once per year, assuming that the gear isn't used for more than
10-20 washings.

I'd think the "inert ingredients" would include stuff that helps
reduce the washout of permethrin from the treated clothing.

I don't particularly want permethrin next to my skin. However - I
have been on international flights where an insect killing spray
"approved by the World Health Organization" was released in the cabin
in order to kill potential pests hitching a ride. I'm guessing it was
permethrin or possibly (similar) pyrethrins.

[Wayne]

Post by y_p_w

Post by Wayne

Post by trailshark
The permethrin sprays for treating clothing are 6 ounces of 0.5%
solution for about $6. I just noticed today that our local livestock
supplier has 10% livestock solution (10% permethrin, 90% "inert
ingredients") for only $12 a quart. That's enough to fill a 5-gallon
bucket after dilution to 0.5% permethrin!
Before I poison myself, has anyone used this stuff (one of the livestock
formulations) on gear or clothing and lived to tell about it? How well
did it work against mosquitoes, and how long did it last before you had
to repeat the treatment?

I haven't used livestock solution, but I did use the garden stuff from Home
Depot. I forget how much I bought (probably a quart), but after dilution
you have much more than 6 ounces. I bought a garden pesticide squeeze
sprayer at the same time, and use it only for spraying clothing. To treat
clothing, I hang the items on hangers outside, and spray with the squeeze
bottle, and let them dry.
Premethrin did seem to work as far as keeping bugs from biting through or
getting on clothing, but it doesn't "repel" bugs not on the clothing.
Thus,
you will still need typical repellent (not premethrin) bug spray/lotion for
exposed skin. However, you will need much less bug spray/lotion on skin,
if you can cover up with premethrin treated clothing. I usually treat the
clothing once per year, assuming that the gear isn't used for more than
10-20 washings.

I'd think the "inert ingredients" would include stuff that helps
reduce the washout of permethrin from the treated clothing.
I don't particularly want permethrin next to my skin. However - I
have been on international flights where an insect killing spray
"approved by the World Health Organization" was released in the cabin
in order to kill potential pests hitching a ride. I'm guessing it was
permethrin or possibly (similar) pyrethrins.

I don't particuolarly want permethrin next to my skin either. I'm not that
sensitive to stuff, but my wife has skin reactions to things as benign as
certain sunscreens. However, she doesn't have any problem with permethrin.

We don't routinely use it except for special situations, such as central
america rainforests and Alaska during bug season.

[barf]

Post by Wayne

Post by trailshark
The permethrin sprays for treating clothing are 6 ounces of 0.5%
solution for about $6. I just noticed today that our local livestock
supplier has 10% livestock solution (10% permethrin, 90% "inert
ingredients") for only $12 a quart. That's enough to fill a 5-gallon
bucket after dilution to 0.5% permethrin!
Before I poison myself, has anyone used this stuff (one of the
livestock formulations) on gear or clothing and lived to tell about it?
How well did it work against mosquitoes, and how long did it last
before you had to repeat the treatment?

I haven't used livestock solution, but I did use the garden stuff from
Home Depot.

Yeah, I found some of that today at Lowes. It's a quart of 2.5% solution
for $14.99. More expensive than the quart of 10% livestock solution for
$12, and not as concentrated. However, there may be chemical differences
that I don't know about.

Post by Wayne
I forget how much I bought (probably a quart), but after dilution you
have much more than 6 ounces. I bought a garden pesticide squeeze
sprayer at the same time, and use it only for spraying clothing. To
treat clothing, I hang the items on hangers outside, and spray with the
squeeze bottle, and let them dry.
Premethrin did seem to work as far as keeping bugs from biting through
or getting on clothing, but it doesn't "repel" bugs not on the clothing.

My understanding is that it's actually an insecticide and will instantly
kill mosquitos and certain other insects if they come into solid
physical contact with it. However, what actually happens is that when
they get close the first whiff stuns them and they fall away. The moment
they're out of range they recover and return only to have it happen all
over again. So, they buzz around but never get to land on the treated cloth.

Post by Wayne
Thus, you will still need typical repellent (not premethrin) bug
spray/lotion for exposed skin. However, you will need much less bug
spray/lotion on skin, if you can cover up with premethrin treated
clothing.

I'm a big fan of microfiber. It's light, dries fast, and mosquitoes
can't penetrate it. What I want the permethrin for is a Hennessy
Hammock. I bought one a few weeks ago thinking to use it on an upcoming
500-mile hike but it's just not working out for me. I'm fairly
broad-shouldered so even when I manage to stay on a sleeping pad, the
triangular shape of the Hennessy Hammock means my sides and limbs are
likely to touch fabric both below and above. Also it's pretty tight in
there so as I flop around my arms and legs readily come into contact
with the netting. The only way this is going to work is to saturate the
entire hammock with something that will repel mosquitoes. DEET doesn't
last long enough and I hate the way it smells and feels on my skin. I'm
looking for something longer-lasting that doesn't have to be constantly
re-applied on a long hike. I really expected that to be too much to ask
but premethrin is actually looking pretty good.

Post by Wayne
I usually treat the clothing once per year, assuming that the gear isn't
used for more than 10-20 washings.

I was thinking that the permethrin made for clothing might have some
ingredient that helps it bond to the fabric. However if the formulation
made for gardens lasts a year on fabric, then there's probably nothing
special in the clothing formulation.

[trailshark]

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 20:03:00 -0500, barf wrote:

"barf"? I see the kids finally figured out my password. :)

[y_p_w]

Post by barf

Post by Wayne

Post by trailshark
The permethrin sprays for treating clothing are 6 ounces of 0.5%
solution for about $6. I just noticed today that our local livestock
supplier has 10% livestock solution (10% permethrin, 90% "inert
ingredients") for only $12 a quart. That's enough to fill a 5-gallon
bucket after dilution to 0.5% permethrin!
Before I poison myself, has anyone used this stuff (one of the
livestock formulations) on gear or clothing and lived to tell about it?
How well did it work against mosquitoes, and how long did it last
before you had to repeat the treatment?

I haven't used livestock solution, but I did use the garden stuff from
Home Depot.

Yeah, I found some of that today at Lowes. It's a quart of 2.5% solution
for $14.99. More expensive than the quart of 10% livestock solution for
$12, and not as concentrated. However, there may be chemical differences
that I don't know about.

Post by Wayne
I forget how much I bought (probably a quart), but after dilution you
have much more than 6 ounces. I bought a garden pesticide squeeze
sprayer at the same time, and use it only for spraying clothing. To
treat clothing, I hang the items on hangers outside, and spray with the
squeeze bottle, and let them dry.
Premethrin did seem to work as far as keeping bugs from biting through
or getting on clothing, but it doesn't "repel" bugs not on the clothing.

My understanding is that it's actually an insecticide and will instantly
kill mosquitos and certain other insects if they come into solid
physical contact with it. However, what actually happens is that when
they get close the first whiff stuns them and they fall away. The moment
they're out of range they recover and return only to have it happen all
over again. So, they buzz around but never get to land on the treated cloth.

It's a selective neurotoxin, as are almost all insecticides. If
you've every tried any ant spray, you'll see that it just stops them
in their tracks. If they get close to a low dose, it's only going to
be a mild effect, like you noticed with flying insects.

Post by barf

Post by Wayne
Thus, you will still need typical repellent (not premethrin) bug
spray/lotion for exposed skin. However, you will need much less bug
spray/lotion on skin, if you can cover up with premethrin treated
clothing.

I'm a big fan of microfiber. It's light, dries fast, and mosquitoes
can't penetrate it. What I want the permethrin for is a Hennessy
Hammock. I bought one a few weeks ago thinking to use it on an upcoming
500-mile hike but it's just not working out for me. I'm fairly
broad-shouldered so even when I manage to stay on a sleeping pad, the
triangular shape of the Hennessy Hammock means my sides and limbs are
likely to touch fabric both below and above. Also it's pretty tight in
there so as I flop around my arms and legs readily come into contact
with the netting. The only way this is going to work is to saturate the
entire hammock with something that will repel mosquitoes. DEET doesn't
last long enough and I hate the way it smells and feels on my skin. I'm
looking for something longer-lasting that doesn't have to be constantly
re-applied on a long hike. I really expected that to be too much to ask
but premethrin is actually looking pretty good.

Post by Wayne
I usually treat the clothing once per year, assuming that the gear isn't
used for more than 10-20 washings.

I was thinking that the permethrin made for clothing might have some
ingredient that helps it bond to the fabric. However if the formulation
made for gardens lasts a year on fabric, then there's probably nothing
special in the clothing formulation.

I remember some dog dips I used had microencapsulated insecticide for
a time-release of the active ingredient.

[Eugene Miya]

Post by y_p_w
It's a selective neurotoxin, as are almost all insecticides.

No, not quite. Most insecticides (and pesticides) are chlorinated hydrocarbons.
The class of organophosphates is comparatively small. But they have an
interesting history.

--

[y_p_w]

Post by Eugene Miya

Post by y_p_w
It's a selective neurotoxin, as are almost all insecticides.

No, not quite. Most insecticides (and pesticides) are chlorinated hydrocarbons.
The class of organophosphates is comparatively small. But they have an
interesting history.

I thought almost all insecticides were neurotoxins of some sort. All
the ones I've used as a pet owner were either cholinesterase
inhibitors (like carbaryl) or other neurotoxins like permethrin. I've
used a few that have gone off the market, like Dursban flea dip as
well as others. I meant selective as in targeting the nerve structure
of insects, mites, spiders, etc rather than mammals. In my younger
days I once offed a cricket with a few drops of diazinon. It was like
that scene from the movie "The Rock" where an FBI chemical weapons
expert is dealing with sarin. This cricket didn't explode like the
indicator bugs they had in the chamber, but it twitched uncontrollably
for almost a minute before it stopped. I'm guessing it was probably
dead long before it stopped twitching.

My reading about DDT (an organochloride/chlorinated hydrocarbon) is
that it opens up sodium ion channels in the nervous system of insects,
etc, which causes an overload of nerve signals. This is supposed to
be similar to the effect of permethrin. Perhaps I'm approaching this
as a layman, but that sounds to me like a neurotoxin. I looked up the
other primary type (neonicotinoids) which cause tremors, paralysis,
and eventual death in insects, etc.

[Eugene Miya]

Post by y_p_w

Post by Eugene Miya

Post by y_p_w
It's a selective neurotoxin, as are almost all insecticides.

No, not quite. Most insecticides (and pesticides) are chlorinated hydrocarbons.
The class of organophosphates is comparatively small. But they have an
interesting history.

I thought almost all insecticides were neurotoxins of some sort.

Well the definition and effect are the semantics of the situation.
When I first learned of organophosphates (encyclopedia, Silent Spring,
dad's work {I've applied malathion}), I knew it was a nerve poison, but
the hazard was shutting down your respiratory system. Words used like
(non-insect case) "blood poison" affect metabolic action. So I think if
you want specifics on toxicology, I'd have to refer you to one of the
sci.* groups (sci.chem, or maybe sci.bio or bionet.*) for a better
answer than I could give you.

Post by y_p_w
All the ones I've used as a pet owner were either cholinesterase
inhibitors (like carbaryl) or other neurotoxins like permethrin. I've
used a few that have gone off the market, like Dursban flea dip as
well as others. I meant selective as in targeting the nerve structure
of insects, mites, spiders, etc rather than mammals. In my younger

Noted.

Post by y_p_w
days I once offed a cricket with a few drops of diazinon. It was like
that scene from the movie "The Rock" where an FBI chemical weapons

Cage's character?

Post by y_p_w
expert is dealing with sarin. This cricket didn't explode like the
indicator bugs they had in the chamber, but it twitched uncontrollably
for almost a minute before it stopped. I'm guessing it was probably
dead long before it stopped twitching.
My reading about DDT (an organochloride/chlorinated hydrocarbon) is
that it opens up sodium ion channels in the nervous system of insects,
etc, which causes an overload of nerve signals. This is supposed to
be similar to the effect of permethrin. Perhaps I'm approaching this
as a layman, but that sounds to me like a neurotoxin. I looked up the
other primary type (neonicotinoids) which cause tremors, paralysis,
and eventual death in insects, etc.

I can believe the Na+ but I am uncertain of the overload.
That's certainly the function of cholinesterase inhibitors.

--

[gr]

Post by trailshark
The permethrin sprays for treating clothing are 6 ounces of 0.5%
solution for about $6. I just noticed today that our local livestock
supplier has 10% livestock solution (10% permethrin, 90% "inert
ingredients") for only $12 a quart. That's enough to fill a 5-gallon
bucket after dilution to 0.5% permethrin!
Before I poison myself, has anyone used this stuff (one of the livestock
formulations) on gear or clothing and lived to tell about it? How well
did it work against mosquitoes, and how long did it last before you had
to repeat the treatment?

Just a side note of warning; permethrin is a deadly poison to cats and
must not be used where they will come in contact with it. Many dog only
topical flea treatments contain permethrin, and cats can be harmed by
being near the dogs, or by grooming them.
gr

[y_p_w]

Post by gr
Just a side note of warning; permethrin is a deadly poison to cats and
must not be used where they will come in contact with it. Many dog only
topical flea treatments contain permethrin, and cats can be harmed by
being near the dogs, or by grooming them.

They may have sensitivities greater than dogs, but proper use of
foggers or other topical permethrin treatments shouldn't present any
huge danger for cats. I think the big worry should be about cats
getting accidental doses of concentrated permethrin. I remember there
were some cheap flea treatments for dogs similar to Bayer Advantage
that contained permethrin. A small dog would shrug off a few drops of
50% permethrin, but it could kill a similar sized cat. The fatalities
I've heard of were when concentrated permethrin was applied directly
to a cat, or a cat came in direct contact with a dog that had been
treated; the reason is invariably the cat ingesting the concentrated
permethrin. I wouldn't worry about a 2.5% spray properly applied to
an article of clothing.

[Wayne]

Post by y_p_w

Post by gr
Just a side note of warning; permethrin is a deadly poison to cats and
must not be used where they will come in contact with it. Many dog only
topical flea treatments contain permethrin, and cats can be harmed by
being near the dogs, or by grooming them.

They may have sensitivities greater than dogs, but proper use of
foggers or other topical permethrin treatments shouldn't present any
huge danger for cats. I think the big worry should be about cats
getting accidental doses of concentrated permethrin. I remember there
were some cheap flea treatments for dogs similar to Bayer Advantage
that contained permethrin. A small dog would shrug off a few drops of
50% permethrin, but it could kill a similar sized cat. The fatalities
I've heard of were when concentrated permethrin was applied directly
to a cat, or a cat came in direct contact with a dog that had been
treated; the reason is invariably the cat ingesting the concentrated
permethrin. I wouldn't worry about a 2.5% spray properly applied to
an article of clothing.

Not to nitpick, but clarify....the permethrin I use was bought at about 2.5%
and diluted down to 0.5% before spraying on clothing. I got the 0.5% number
off a bottle of permethrin spray at REI (and I didn't buy it because of the
cost).

Also, in an earlier post there may have been an implication that the
treatment lasts a year on my clothes. I live in So. Cal. and we have very
few bug problems, so I only treat the clothes when we are going to a more
bug infested location....and that's about once per year.