Down jacket sloughing off down - can I treat it?

[Dan_Musicant]

I bought it 10 days ago at Costco. It keeps me warm enough, looks OK.
It's my first down jacket. The color is "slate", and it has a fantastic
assortment of pockets that really work.

I'd be quite pleased but for the fact that feathers (in particular down)
keep coming out of the material. If I pull them out, more keep coming. I
decided to ignore them but I'm not sure that's working. My house is
chilly and I'm seeing little and not so little duck down feathers very
frequently, including on the back of my desk chair. I also see them
floating in the air!

Is there something I can do to reduce the problem? I have some rain
chaps that used to not really work and I sprayed them with a water
repellent (years ago) and I'm wondering if something like that might
improve the situation. It did make the chaps pretty stiff, though,
probably not something I want in a jacket.

I'm thinking of walking into REI and asking them. I figure spraying
judiciously (i.e. enough but not too much!) with the right product might
very much reduce the problem without ruining the jacket.

Thanks for sage advice, comments, etc.

Dan

[GregS]

Post by Dan_Musicant
I bought it 10 days ago at Costco. It keeps me warm enough, looks OK.
It's my first down jacket. The color is "slate", and it has a fantastic
assortment of pockets that really work.
I'd be quite pleased but for the fact that feathers (in particular down)
keep coming out of the material. If I pull them out, more keep coming. I
decided to ignore them but I'm not sure that's working. My house is
chilly and I'm seeing little and not so little duck down feathers very
frequently, including on the back of my desk chair. I also see them
floating in the air!
Is there something I can do to reduce the problem? I have some rain
chaps that used to not really work and I sprayed them with a water
repellent (years ago) and I'm wondering if something like that might
improve the situation. It did make the chaps pretty stiff, though,
probably not something I want in a jacket.
I'm thinking of walking into REI and asking them. I figure spraying
judiciously (i.e. enough but not too much!) with the right product might
very much reduce the problem without ruining the jacket.
Thanks for sage advice, comments, etc.
Dan

Coat it with tar.

greg

[Dan_Musicant]

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 21:01:12 GMT, Dan_Musicant <***@pacbell.net>
wrote:

:I bought it 10 days ago at Costco. It keeps me warm enough, looks OK.
:It's my first down jacket. The color is "slate", and it has a fantastic
:assortment of pockets that really work.
:
:I'd be quite pleased but for the fact that feathers (in particular down)
:keep coming out of the material. If I pull them out, more keep coming. I
:decided to ignore them but I'm not sure that's working. My house is
:chilly and I'm seeing little and not so little duck down feathers very
:frequently, including on the back of my desk chair. I also see them
:floating in the air!
:
:Is there something I can do to reduce the problem? I have some rain
:chaps that used to not really work and I sprayed them with a water
:repellent (years ago) and I'm wondering if something like that might
:improve the situation. It did make the chaps pretty stiff, though,
:probably not something I want in a jacket.
:
:I'm thinking of walking into REI and asking them. I figure spraying
:judiciously (i.e. enough but not too much!) with the right product might
:very much reduce the problem without ruining the jacket.
:
:Thanks for sage advice, comments, etc.
:
:Dan

BTW, I don't believe there's any water proofing in the fabric. It soaks
up any water immediately.

Dan

[Dll]

"Dan_Musicant"

Post by Dan_Musicant
I bought it 10 days ago at Costco.

You bought a cheap POS jacket. Better jackets are made of material that
won't pass feathers, nor readily absorb water. They cost more. Love it
as-is or return it.

N

[Dan_Musicant]

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:41:17 -0700, "Dll" <***@privacy.net> wrote:

:
:"Dan_Musicant"
:
:>I bought it 10 days ago at Costco.
:
:You bought a cheap POS jacket. Better jackets are made of material that
:won't pass feathers, nor readily absorb water. They cost more. Love it
:as-is or return it.
:
:N
:
I went into REI today and approached a guy who I think has worked there
a long time and had been helping someone with winter jackets. He said he
didn't know of any remedy and was quite doubtful that any of the many
Nikwax products they stocked would be worth trying. He said he thought
it would be a waste of money. Much as I like the design of the jacket,
I'm going to have to return it to Costco. I'm tired of seeing feathers
everywhere, including floating in the air.

I have another down jacket and I haven't seen a single piece of down
come out of it. It's plain, only two pockets and the only zipper is up
the middle. I wouldn't trust the pockets with my glasses. Well, other
than that it's OK. I'll hunt around for something more utilitarian as
well.

Dan

[PatOConnell]

Post by Dan_Musicant
:"Dan_Musicant"
:>I bought it 10 days ago at Costco.
:You bought a cheap POS jacket. Better jackets are made of material that
:won't pass feathers, nor readily absorb water. They cost more. Love it
:as-is or return it.
:N

If the jacket's that bad and you have the receipt, Costco will
cheerfully return your money.

I have two good coats I bought from Costco.

One has pile insulation and a sturdy nylon shell (the local store still
sells this one). Best for above zero temperatures.

The other is synthetic fill with a Goretex shell. It's about 10 years
old and may never wear out. It's warm enough to handle temperatures well
below zero F.

Post by Dan_Musicant
I went into REI today and approached a guy who I think has worked there
a long time and had been helping someone with winter jackets. He said he
didn't know of any remedy and was quite doubtful that any of the many
Nikwax products they stocked would be worth trying. He said he thought
it would be a waste of money. Much as I like the design of the jacket,
I'm going to have to return it to Costco. I'm tired of seeing feathers
everywhere, including floating in the air.

...

[Dan_Musicant]

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 07:32:01 -0600, PatOConnell <***@gmail.com>
wrote:

:If the jacket's that bad and you have the receipt, Costco will
:cheerfully return your money.
:
:I have two good coats I bought from Costco.
:
:One has pile insulation and a sturdy nylon shell (the local store still
:sells this one). Best for above zero temperatures.
:
:The other is synthetic fill with a Goretex shell. It's about 10 years
:old and may never wear out. It's warm enough to handle temperatures well
:below zero F.

Costco is a crapshoot for jackets (and many other things, not all). I
have a jacket I bought there around 8-10 years ago (I guess) and it's
still OK except I think a fireplace ember hopped up on it and burned a
small hole. It's lined with a fleecy material but no fill. Indeed these
two down/feather filled jackets I just bought at two different Costco's
on the same day are, I believe, the first filled jackets I've ever
owned. I'm wearing the costlier/simpler/down-contained one right now! I
rode my bike with it last night on a downhill route and stayed nicely
warm! I believe it even has water repellent properties (it didn't seem
to absorb water in a drizzling rain), whereas the other does not. I'll
return the cheaper feather shedding though well pocketed coat. I do
still have the receipt, although I think they might accept it back in
any case. I even found the tag. I'm sure they'll toss it.

I only wish the keeper had better pockets. They have plastic snaps on
them. I HATE those. If they had nothing I could at least sew on velcro.
Well, I'll use other pockets (pants, backpack).

Dan

[Jan Mikkelsen]

Post by Dll
You bought a cheap POS jacket. Better jackets are made of material that
won't pass feathers, nor readily absorb water. They cost more. Love it
as-is or return it.

That's BS. I have two "expensive" down jacket that do the same. Not in
the extreme as Dan suggest here but still.

/Jan

[GregS]

Post by Jan Mikkelsen

Post by Dll
You bought a cheap POS jacket. Better jackets are made of material that
won't pass feathers, nor readily absorb water. They cost more. Love it
as-is or return it.

That's BS. I have two "expensive" down jacket that do the same. Not in
the extreme as Dan suggest here but still.

I wore one for a few years. Nothing ever came out. I still have the jacket but its too small.

greg

[Jan Mikkelsen]

Post by GregS
I wore one for a few years. Nothing ever came out. I still have the jacket but its too small.
greg

Oh .. so in your case it was not the feathers that outgrew the jacket? ;-)

/Jan

[Brian in SLC]

Post by Dan_Musicant
I'd be quite pleased but for the fact that feathers (in particular down)
keep coming out of the material. If I pull them out, more keep coming. I
decided to ignore them but I'm not sure that's working. My house is
chilly and I'm seeing little and not so little duck down feathers very
frequently, including on the back of my desk chair. I also see them
floating in the air!
Is there something I can do to reduce the problem?

Probably not. Better down jackets come with a liner that resists down
feathers poking through (and may also use a higher quality of down
that is more fluff, and less pointy bits).

Don't pull the feathers out. Pull them back in. Try to grab onto the
feather from behind (inside) the fabric and pull them back into the
garmet. It sort of helps, and, keeps the rest of them from spilling
out where the others have gone.

-Brian in SLC

[David]

Post by Dan_Musicant
I bought it 10 days ago at Costco. It keeps me warm enough, looks OK.
It's my first down jacket. The color is "slate", and it has a fantastic
assortment of pockets that really work.
I'd be quite pleased but for the fact that feathers (in particular down)
keep coming out of the material. If I pull them out, more keep coming. I
decided to ignore them but I'm not sure that's working. My house is
chilly and I'm seeing little and not so little duck down feathers very
frequently, including on the back of my desk chair. I also see them
floating in the air!
Is there something I can do to reduce the problem? I have some rain
chaps that used to not really work and I sprayed them with a water
repellent (years ago) and I'm wondering if something like that might
improve the situation. It did make the chaps pretty stiff, though,
probably not something I want in a jacket.
I'm thinking of walking into REI and asking them. I figure spraying
judiciously (i.e. enough but not too much!) with the right product might
very much reduce the problem without ruining the jacket.
Thanks for sage advice, comments, etc.
Dan

Yeah, I don't think that there's anything you can do. Most down pieces
will lose a little down, usually at the seams. If you're losing quite
a lot, I don't think there's anything you can do about it. I once had
a LL Bean down sleeping bag, and it frequently leaked down for a year,
so I ended up returning (they refunded, no questions asked). Santa
brought me a Mont Bell ultralight down jacket (weighs 8 oz!!), and
hasn't lost a plume yet! It's one of those things, that you get what
you pay for, unfortunately.

David

[Tom Nakashima]

Post by Dan_Musicant
I'd be quite pleased but for the fact that feathers (in particular down)
keep coming out of the material. If I pull them out, more keep coming. I
decided to ignore them but I'm not sure that's working.
Dan

Dan,
it's actually normal for down feathers to come out of the shell, just don't
pull on them, let me fall out natural.
I've had my North Face down vest for over 10 years. It's leaked out
down feathers, but it's still fluff.
-tom

[Dan_Musicant]

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 07:17:29 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
<***@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:

:
:"Dan_Musicant" <***@pacbell.net> wrote in message
:news:***@4ax.com...
:>
:> I'd be quite pleased but for the fact that feathers (in particular down)
:> keep coming out of the material. If I pull them out, more keep coming. I
:> decided to ignore them but I'm not sure that's working.
:> Dan
:>
:
:Dan,
:it's actually normal for down feathers to come out of the shell, just don't
:pull on them, let me fall out natural.
:I've had my North Face down vest for over 10 years. It's leaked out
:down feathers, but it's still fluff.
:-tom
:
Tom, I could live with a certain level of it but this one is way more
than I can tolerate. Truly, I see tiny pieces of down floating in the
air and my office chair has several feathers on it. I'll get rid of the
jacket, and THEN pick the feathers off the chair and I'm sure the
feather problem will recede quickly into fading memory. However, I now
know that there's a potential issue with any down-filled garment and
hopefully be a lot more careful next time. Truly, I was a neophyte in
the realm of down, if you will forgive the pun, a fledgling! :)

Dan

[Tom Nakashima]

Post by Dan_Musicant
On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 07:17:29 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
:>
:> I'd be quite pleased but for the fact that feathers (in particular down)
:> keep coming out of the material. If I pull them out, more keep coming. I
:> decided to ignore them but I'm not sure that's working.
:> Dan
:>
:Dan,
:it's actually normal for down feathers to come out of the shell, just don't
:pull on them, let me fall out natural.
:I've had my North Face down vest for over 10 years. It's leaked out
:down feathers, but it's still fluff.
:-tom
Tom, I could live with a certain level of it but this one is way more
than I can tolerate. Truly, I see tiny pieces of down floating in the
air and my office chair has several feathers on it. I'll get rid of the
jacket, and THEN pick the feathers off the chair and I'm sure the
feather problem will recede quickly into fading memory. However, I now
know that there's a potential issue with any down-filled garment and
hopefully be a lot more careful next time. Truly, I was a neophyte in
the realm of down, if you will forgive the pun, a fledgling! :)
Dan

My NF did that too when new. It was so annoying that I took it back to
North Face and complained. Guess they were expecting me because they
had articles on down products that shed feathers. It's quite common.

After while the shedding will stop...in the mean time:

He rocks in the tree tops all day long
Hoppin and a-boppin and singing his song
All the little birdies on jaybird street
Love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet
Rockin Robin....Rockin Robin.....

All seriousness aside, if it bothers you that much, take it back,
buy a NF and watch the feathers shed.
-tom

[David]

Post by Tom Nakashima

Post by Dan_Musicant
On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 07:17:29 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
:>
:> I'd be quite pleased but for the fact that feathers (in particular down)
:> keep coming out of the material. If I pull them out, more keep coming. I
:> decided to ignore them but I'm not sure that's working.
:> Dan
:>
:Dan,
:it's actually normal for down feathers to come out of the shell, just don't
:pull on them, let me fall out natural.
:I've had my North Face down vest for over 10 years. It's leaked out
:down feathers, but it's still fluff.
:-tom
Tom, I could live with a certain level of it but this one is way more
than I can tolerate. Truly, I see tiny pieces of down floating in the
air and my office chair has several feathers on it. I'll get rid of the
jacket, and THEN pick the feathers off the chair and I'm sure the
feather problem will recede quickly into fading memory. However, I now
know that there's a potential issue with any down-filled garment and
hopefully be a lot more careful next time. Truly, I was a neophyte in
the realm of down, if you will forgive the pun, a fledgling! :)
Dan

My NF did that too when new. It was so annoying that I took it back to
North Face and complained. Guess they were expecting me because they
had articles on down products that shed feathers. It's quite common.
He rocks in the tree tops all day long
Hoppin and a-boppin and singing his song
All the little birdies on jaybird street
Love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet
Rockin Robin....Rockin Robin.....
All seriousness aside, if it bothers you that much, take it back,
buy a NF and watch the feathers shed.
-tom

Or buy Mont-Bell for a hundred bucks less than TNF, and don't worry
about it... . Seriously, I've had it for a month, and used it several
times, and haven't seen a plume yet.
http://www.montbell.us/products/list.php?cat_id=70

[VtSkier]

Post by David

Post by Tom Nakashima

Post by Dan_Musicant
On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 07:17:29 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
:>
:> I'd be quite pleased but for the fact that feathers (in particular down)
:> keep coming out of the material. If I pull them out, more keep coming. I
:> decided to ignore them but I'm not sure that's working.
:> Dan
:>
:Dan,
:it's actually normal for down feathers to come out of the shell, just don't
:pull on them, let me fall out natural.
:I've had my North Face down vest for over 10 years. It's leaked out
:down feathers, but it's still fluff.
:-tom
Tom, I could live with a certain level of it but this one is way more
than I can tolerate. Truly, I see tiny pieces of down floating in the
air and my office chair has several feathers on it. I'll get rid of the
jacket, and THEN pick the feathers off the chair and I'm sure the
feather problem will recede quickly into fading memory. However, I now
know that there's a potential issue with any down-filled garment and
hopefully be a lot more careful next time. Truly, I was a neophyte in
the realm of down, if you will forgive the pun, a fledgling! :)
Dan

My NF did that too when new. It was so annoying that I took it back to
North Face and complained. Guess they were expecting me because they
had articles on down products that shed feathers. It's quite common.
He rocks in the tree tops all day long
Hoppin and a-boppin and singing his song
All the little birdies on jaybird street
Love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet
Rockin Robin....Rockin Robin.....
All seriousness aside, if it bothers you that much, take it back,
buy a NF and watch the feathers shed.
-tom

Or buy Mont-Bell for a hundred bucks less than TNF, and don't worry
about it... . Seriously, I've had it for a month, and used it several
times, and haven't seen a plume yet.
http://www.montbell.us/products/list.php?cat_id=70

Down is a wonderful material. I have a sleeping bag
I got from my father. It's circa WWII. It is part
down and part feathers. Really warm. I has, however,
been shedding feathers and down since the 1940's.
It still keeps me warm when I need something like
that.

However, my cold weather mid-layer jacket is not
down, it's Holofill (or equal) polyester. Very light,
VERY warm, won't absorb moisture (down will),
very breathable, very packable (much better than
fleece) and never, never sheds feathers.

[Tom Nakashima]

Post by VtSkier

Post by David

Post by Tom Nakashima

Post by Dan_Musicant
On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 07:17:29 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
:>
:> I'd be quite pleased but for the fact that feathers (in particular down)
:> keep coming out of the material. If I pull them out, more keep
coming.
I
:> decided to ignore them but I'm not sure that's working.
:> Dan
:>
:Dan,
:it's actually normal for down feathers to come out of the shell, just don't
:pull on them, let me fall out natural.
:I've had my North Face down vest for over 10 years. It's leaked out
:down feathers, but it's still fluff.
:-tom
Tom, I could live with a certain level of it but this one is way more
than I can tolerate. Truly, I see tiny pieces of down floating in the
air and my office chair has several feathers on it. I'll get rid of the
jacket, and THEN pick the feathers off the chair and I'm sure the
feather problem will recede quickly into fading memory. However, I now
know that there's a potential issue with any down-filled garment and
hopefully be a lot more careful next time. Truly, I was a neophyte in
the realm of down, if you will forgive the pun, a fledgling! :)
Dan

My NF did that too when new. It was so annoying that I took it back to
North Face and complained. Guess they were expecting me because they
had articles on down products that shed feathers. It's quite common.
He rocks in the tree tops all day long
Hoppin and a-boppin and singing his song
All the little birdies on jaybird street
Love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet
Rockin Robin....Rockin Robin.....
All seriousness aside, if it bothers you that much, take it back,
buy a NF and watch the feathers shed.
-tom

Or buy Mont-Bell for a hundred bucks less than TNF, and don't worry
about it... . Seriously, I've had it for a month, and used it several
times, and haven't seen a plume yet.
http://www.montbell.us/products/list.php?cat_id=70

Down is a wonderful material. I have a sleeping bag
I got from my father. It's circa WWII. It is part
down and part feathers. Really warm. I has, however,
been shedding feathers and down since the 1940's.
It still keeps me warm when I need something like
that.
However, my cold weather mid-layer jacket is not
down, it's Holofill (or equal) polyester. Very light,
VERY warm, won't absorb moisture (down will),
very breathable, very packable (much better than
fleece) and never, never sheds feathers.

There is good quality down and lesser quality down.
I've heard the good quality down will shed feathers through the
membrane.
That's not to say other companies don't use good quality down.
Membranes could have gotten better.
I also have a Western Mountaineering down sleeping bag, it too
sheds a bit...had that bag for 17+ years. I purchased a light
OR waterproof shell for the bag for wet weather, and a silk sleeping
bag liner...a good investment to prolong the life of the bag.
-tom

[GregS]

Post by VtSkier

Post by David

Post by Tom Nakashima

Post by Dan_Musicant
On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 07:17:29 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
:>
:> I'd be quite pleased but for the fact that feathers (in particular down)
:> keep coming out of the material. If I pull them out, more keep coming. I
:> decided to ignore them but I'm not sure that's working.
:> Dan
:>
:Dan,
:it's actually normal for down feathers to come out of the shell, just don't
:pull on them, let me fall out natural.
:I've had my North Face down vest for over 10 years. It's leaked out
:down feathers, but it's still fluff.
:-tom
Tom, I could live with a certain level of it but this one is way more
than I can tolerate. Truly, I see tiny pieces of down floating in the
air and my office chair has several feathers on it. I'll get rid of the
jacket, and THEN pick the feathers off the chair and I'm sure the
feather problem will recede quickly into fading memory. However, I now
know that there's a potential issue with any down-filled garment and
hopefully be a lot more careful next time. Truly, I was a neophyte in
the realm of down, if you will forgive the pun, a fledgling! :)
Dan

My NF did that too when new. It was so annoying that I took it back to
North Face and complained. Guess they were expecting me because they
had articles on down products that shed feathers. It's quite common.
He rocks in the tree tops all day long
Hoppin and a-boppin and singing his song
All the little birdies on jaybird street
Love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet
Rockin Robin....Rockin Robin.....
All seriousness aside, if it bothers you that much, take it back,
buy a NF and watch the feathers shed.
-tom

Or buy Mont-Bell for a hundred bucks less than TNF, and don't worry
about it... . Seriously, I've had it for a month, and used it several
times, and haven't seen a plume yet.
http://www.montbell.us/products/list.php?cat_id=70

Down is a wonderful material. I have a sleeping bag
I got from my father. It's circa WWII. It is part
down and part feathers. Really warm. I has, however,
been shedding feathers and down since the 1940's.
It still keeps me warm when I need something like
that.
However, my cold weather mid-layer jacket is not
down, it's Holofill (or equal) polyester. Very light,
VERY warm, won't absorb moisture (down will),
very breathable, very packable (much better than
fleece) and never, never sheds feathers.

I think its been tested that down does not offer any advantage. Perhaps
some exotic down ?
Dupont polyester or any other polyester are all about the same. The
main thing to quality is high even lofting.

I used to like Dupont Quallofil, just because they said it was best.
I guess 808, Holofil, and Quallofil do have air chambers, but that
is not going to matter much unless the fibers are really packed together.

The best insulation is probably, using several layers of Thinsulate. or Thinsulate
inner and outer layers, with polyester inbetween.

Interesting info click on Lite Loft..
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/ThinsulateInsulation/Insulation/

greg

[Tom Nakashima]

Post by GregS

Post by VtSkier

Post by David

Post by Tom Nakashima

Post by Dan_Musicant
On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 07:17:29 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
:>
:> I'd be quite pleased but for the fact that feathers (in particular down)
:> keep coming out of the material. If I pull them out, more keep
coming.
I
:> decided to ignore them but I'm not sure that's working.
:> Dan
:>
:Dan,
:it's actually normal for down feathers to come out of the shell, just don't
:pull on them, let me fall out natural.
:I've had my North Face down vest for over 10 years. It's leaked out
:down feathers, but it's still fluff.
:-tom
Tom, I could live with a certain level of it but this one is way more
than I can tolerate. Truly, I see tiny pieces of down floating in the
air and my office chair has several feathers on it. I'll get rid of the
jacket, and THEN pick the feathers off the chair and I'm sure the
feather problem will recede quickly into fading memory. However, I now
know that there's a potential issue with any down-filled garment and
hopefully be a lot more careful next time. Truly, I was a neophyte in
the realm of down, if you will forgive the pun, a fledgling! :)
Dan

My NF did that too when new. It was so annoying that I took it back to
North Face and complained. Guess they were expecting me because they
had articles on down products that shed feathers. It's quite common.
He rocks in the tree tops all day long
Hoppin and a-boppin and singing his song
All the little birdies on jaybird street
Love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet
Rockin Robin....Rockin Robin.....
All seriousness aside, if it bothers you that much, take it back,
buy a NF and watch the feathers shed.
-tom

Or buy Mont-Bell for a hundred bucks less than TNF, and don't worry
about it... . Seriously, I've had it for a month, and used it several
times, and haven't seen a plume yet.
http://www.montbell.us/products/list.php?cat_id=70

Down is a wonderful material. I have a sleeping bag
I got from my father. It's circa WWII. It is part
down and part feathers. Really warm. I has, however,
been shedding feathers and down since the 1940's.
It still keeps me warm when I need something like
that.
However, my cold weather mid-layer jacket is not
down, it's Holofill (or equal) polyester. Very light,
VERY warm, won't absorb moisture (down will),
very breathable, very packable (much better than
fleece) and never, never sheds feathers.

I think its been tested that down does not offer any advantage. Perhaps
some exotic down ?
Dupont polyester or any other polyester are all about the same. The
main thing to quality is high even lofting.
I used to like Dupont Quallofil, just because they said it was best.
I guess 808, Holofil, and Quallofil do have air chambers, but that
is not going to matter much unless the fibers are really packed together.
The best insulation is probably, using several layers of Thinsulate. or Thinsulate
inner and outer layers, with polyester inbetween.
Interesting info click on Lite Loft..
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/ThinsulateInsulation/Insulation/
greg

Down = pack it down tight & light....plus keeps me warm.
I use a cinch bag, when I'm done compressing the down sleepingbag it's about
the size of a football.
-tom

[the Moderator]

Post by GregS
I think its been tested that down does not offer any advantage. Perhaps
some exotic down ?
Dupont polyester or any other polyester are all about the same. The
main thing to quality is high even lofting.
I used to like Dupont Quallofil, just because they said it was best.
I guess 808, Holofil, and Quallofil do have air chambers, but that
is not going to matter much unless the fibers are really packed together.

Are you saying that down has no advantage over polyester?

My empirical testing confirms that down is warmer by weight and more
compressible by volume. I have a lot of poly clothing, but my cold weather
sleeping bags are down. My sub-freezing jackets are down.

[y_p_w]

Post by the Moderator

Post by GregS
I think its been tested that down does not offer any advantage. Perhaps
some exotic down ?
Dupont polyester or any other polyester are all about the same. The
main thing to quality is high even lofting.
I used to like Dupont Quallofil, just because they said it was best.
I guess 808, Holofil, and Quallofil do have air chambers, but that
is not going to matter much unless the fibers are really packed together.

Are you saying that down has no advantage over polyester?
My empirical testing confirms that down is warmer by weight and more
compressible by volume. I have a lot of poly clothing, but my cold weather
sleeping bags are down. My sub-freezing jackets are down.

I guess the problems are that some people are allergic to down. Down
has a distinct odor, may lose its loft after being compressed too
long, is pricey, tends to shed through many covers, doesn't insulate
as well as synthetics when wet, and takes longer to dry. Also - some
people are a bit disturbed by how down is obtained (typically plucked
from live birds).

[GregS]

Post by the Moderator

Post by GregS
I think its been tested that down does not offer any advantage. Perhaps
some exotic down ?
Dupont polyester or any other polyester are all about the same. The
main thing to quality is high even lofting.
I used to like Dupont Quallofil, just because they said it was best.
I guess 808, Holofil, and Quallofil do have air chambers, but that
is not going to matter much unless the fibers are really packed together.

Are you saying that down has no advantage over polyester?
My empirical testing confirms that down is warmer by weight and more
compressible by volume. I have a lot of poly clothing, but my cold weather
sleeping bags are down. My sub-freezing jackets are down.

I'm just going by the link I gave, and general reports over the years. I
do think down probably has a tendancy to lay flatter offering more restriction
to airflow. We don't want airflow.

greg

[Dan_Musicant]

On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 06:38:29 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
<***@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:

:
:"Dan_Musicant" <***@privacy.net> wrote in message
:news:***@4ax.com...
:> On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 07:17:29 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
:> <***@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
:>
:> :
:> :"Dan_Musicant" <***@pacbell.net> wrote in message
:> :news:***@4ax.com...
:> :>
:> :> I'd be quite pleased but for the fact that feathers (in particular
:> down)
:> :> keep coming out of the material. If I pull them out, more keep coming.
:> I
:> :> decided to ignore them but I'm not sure that's working.
:> :> Dan
:> :>
:> :
:> :Dan,
:> :it's actually normal for down feathers to come out of the shell, just
:> don't
:> :pull on them, let me fall out natural.
:> :I've had my North Face down vest for over 10 years. It's leaked out
:> :down feathers, but it's still fluff.
:> :-tom
:> :
:> Tom, I could live with a certain level of it but this one is way more
:> than I can tolerate. Truly, I see tiny pieces of down floating in the
:> air and my office chair has several feathers on it. I'll get rid of the
:> jacket, and THEN pick the feathers off the chair and I'm sure the
:> feather problem will recede quickly into fading memory. However, I now
:> know that there's a potential issue with any down-filled garment and
:> hopefully be a lot more careful next time. Truly, I was a neophyte in
:> the realm of down, if you will forgive the pun, a fledgling! :)
:> Dan
:
:My NF did that too when new. It was so annoying that I took it back to
:North Face and complained. Guess they were expecting me because they
:had articles on down products that shed feathers. It's quite common.
:
:After while the shedding will stop...in the mean time:
:
:He rocks in the tree tops all day long
:Hoppin and a-boppin and singing his song
:All the little birdies on jaybird street
:Love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet
:Rockin Robin....Rockin Robin.....
:
:All seriousness aside, if it bothers you that much, take it back,
:buy a NF and watch the feathers shed.
:-tom

Ah, a few days ago when I went into REI and was told that spraying
wouldn't help (in his opinion), I went right over the NF Outlet, which
is right around the corner from REI. Alas, there was a sign on the door
that they had temporarily lost power (stormy weather) and I should
return next day. Unfortunately, I don't get over in that area often. I
made a special trip. Maybe next week. The NF Outlet has super marked
down prices, is my impression, having been in there 2-3 times.

Don't take offense, but I'm skeptical that this jacket will stop
shedding anytime soon, or ever for that matter. Doesn't it depend on a
few factors, such as the nature of the fill, the porosity of the outer
shell and the absense of a layer of protection between?

Dan

[ACAR]

On Jan 30, 8:22 pm, Dan_Musicant <***@privacy.net> wrote:
snip

Post by Dan_Musicant
Don't take offense, but I'm skeptical that this jacket will stop
shedding anytime soon, or ever for that matter. Doesn't it depend on a
few factors, such as the nature of the fill,

Yup, high quality down has very few feathers, just down pods (or
whatever they are called).

the porosity of the outer

Post by Dan_Musicant
shell and the absense of a layer of protection between?

Most down jackets have a single down-proof shell. Down-proof isn't the
same as feather-proof. Its pretty easy to contain high quality down
(no sharp points) but tiny feathers are another matter entirely.

See
http://tinyurl.com/29pdus
(redirects to Feathered Friends' Frontpoint parka)
for an example of a semi-custom down garment offered in a choice of
down-proof fabrics. This product is expensive but no worries about
down leakage or warmth. The Feathered Friends web site has
descriptions of their down and fabrics if you want to know more.

Post by Dan_Musicant
Dan

[Tom Nakashima]

Post by ACAR
snip

Post by Dan_Musicant
Don't take offense, but I'm skeptical that this jacket will stop
shedding anytime soon, or ever for that matter. Doesn't it depend on a
few factors, such as the nature of the fill,

Yup, high quality down has very few feathers, just down pods (or
whatever they are called).
the porosity of the outer

Post by Dan_Musicant
shell and the absense of a layer of protection between?

Most down jackets have a single down-proof shell. Down-proof isn't the
same as feather-proof. Its pretty easy to contain high quality down
(no sharp points) but tiny feathers are another matter entirely.
See
http://tinyurl.com/29pdus
(redirects to Feathered Friends' Frontpoint parka)
for an example of a semi-custom down garment offered in a choice of
down-proof fabrics. This product is expensive but no worries about
down leakage or warmth. The Feathered Friends web site has
descriptions of their down and fabrics if you want to know more.

I think ACAR summed it up pretty good about down.

What I have learned in purchasing backpacking equip/clothing. If you're
not happy with it, return it. You're the one who is going to be wearing
the jacket, so go with something you can live with.
-tom

[Dll]

"Dan_Musicant"

Post by Dan_Musicant
I went right over the NF Outlet

NF quality is highly variable, between mediocre and crap. I have a NF,
Feathered Friends, and 2 Mountain Hardware down jackets. They all loose a
little down now and then, but the NF is the worst by far. It was a gift.
I'd never buy anything from them myself. The MH Phantom jacket is the best
I've had.

[Dan_Musicant]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:37:22 -0700, "Dll" <***@privacy.net> wrote:

:
:"Dan_Musicant"
:
:> I went right over the NF Outlet
:
:NF quality is highly variable, between mediocre and crap. I have a NF,
:Feathered Friends, and 2 Mountain Hardware down jackets. They all loose a
:little down now and then, but the NF is the worst by far. It was a gift.
:I'd never buy anything from them myself. The MH Phantom jacket is the best
:I've had.


Thanks for this info, I had no idea concerning the quality I might
expect at NF.

For everyone's information:

The other jacket I got around 2 weeks ago at a certain Costco has so far
yielded no kind of feather or down, is reasonably serviceable and simple
(if you don't require much in the way of pockets!), is attractive and
warm , and is labeled:

Polo Jeans Co.
Ralph Lauren

Made in China
etc.

It costs $50. Although I am new to down jackets, based on what I've
learned the last couple of weeks I'd have to think it a bargain. For me,
it is a keeper.

Dan

[y_p_w]

Post by Dan_Musicant
:"Dan_Musicant"
:> I went right over the NF Outlet
:NF quality is highly variable, between mediocre and crap. I have a NF,
:Feathered Friends, and 2 Mountain Hardware down jackets. They all loose a
:little down now and then, but the NF is the worst by far. It was a gift.
:I'd never buy anything from them myself. The MH Phantom jacket is the best
:I've had.
Thanks for this info, I had no idea concerning the quality I might
expect at NF.

Some people think that TNF has sold out in order to cater to the urban
set, but I think they have a range that varies from weell made to
utter crap.

Almost all outdoor equipment companies manufacture overseas these
days, and the quality has always been variable.

[ACAR]

On Jan 31, 6:29 pm, y_p_w <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
snip

Post by y_p_w
Almost all outdoor equipment companies manufacture overseas these
days, and the quality has always been variable.

Which is why I continue to do business with Feathered Friends. Their
stuff is produced in Seattle, WA.

[Jon]

If you find down "poking out" pulling it back into the
isulating chamber of garmet or sleeping bag is preferable
to pulling it out. Pulling it out can create a train of linked
down and expand the space between threads of the shell
fabric.

Simply pinch the shell and down from the "other side"
where it is poking out and pull it back into the chamber.
It may take several tries.

If you find "feathers" in your down jacket or bag, then,
perhaps you've gotten no more than you paid for! %^)

Jon

[Tom Nakashima]

Post by Jon
If you find down "poking out" pulling it back into the
isulating chamber of garmet or sleeping bag is preferable
to pulling it out. Pulling it out can create a train of linked
down and expand the space between threads of the shell
fabric.
Simply pinch the shell and down from the "other side"
where it is poking out and pull it back into the chamber.
It may take several tries.
If you find "feathers" in your down jacket or bag, then,
perhaps you've gotten no more than you paid for! %^)
Jon

Some people think if their jacket/vest sheds down feathers, it will lose
it's warmth. It's a myth.

About TNF, sounds like they've gone downhill from what I've been reading
here. My last purchase from TNF was a 700 fill down vest 15 years
ago...not even sure if it was called Nuptse back then. I use it quite a
bit, even thrown it in the washing machine under gentle cycle many times. It
sheds now and then, but it's still fluff as it was when I first purchased it
and hasn't lost it's warmth.

I use the downvest because I like my arms free, sometimes I have to immerse
them in a river or stream. I find it's enough to keep the main part of my
body warm, (the chest).

There are many down jackets/vest out there, it's best to find what works
best for you.
good luck,
-tom

[Peter Clinch]

Post by Tom Nakashima
Some people think if their jacket/vest sheds down feathers, it will lose
it's warmth. It's a myth.

It rather depends to what extent. Ultimately, if it keeps shedding its
insulation there won't be any left. You can expect a small amount of
shedding from just about any piece of down gear and it will go on
working, but at some point you may well have lost enough to really dent
the performance.

Pete.

[Tom Nakashima]

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Tom Nakashima
Some people think if their jacket/vest sheds down feathers, it will lose
it's warmth. It's a myth.

It rather depends to what extent. Ultimately, if it keeps shedding its
insulation there won't be any left. You can expect a small amount of
shedding from just about any piece of down gear and it will go on
working, but at some point you may well have lost enough to really dent
the performance.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel [phone] ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax [phone] Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK

Interesting,
don't think I've heard of a case where a down jacket, sleepingbag had lost
enough down feathers to not insulate...have you???
The good down products that I've seen are chambered.
TNF will repack down if you whine enough about it.
-tom

[Cricket]

Post by Tom Nakashima

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Tom Nakashima
Some people think if their jacket/vest sheds down feathers, it will lose
it's warmth. It's a myth.

It rather depends to what extent. Ultimately, if it keeps shedding its
insulation there won't be any left. You can expect a small amount of
shedding from just about any piece of down gear and it will go on
working, but at some point you may well have lost enough to really dent
the performance.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel [phone] ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax [phone] Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK

Interesting,
don't think I've heard of a case where a down jacket, sleepingbag had lost
enough down feathers to not insulate...have you???
The good down products that I've seen are chambered.
TNF will repack down if you whine enough about it.
-tom

I've had it happen, but we're talking twenty year old coats that were worn
daily all winter, so I'm thinking I got my money's worth anyway...

Cricket

[Tom Nakashima]

Post by Cricket

Post by Tom Nakashima

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Tom Nakashima
Some people think if their jacket/vest sheds down feathers, it will lose
it's warmth. It's a myth.

It rather depends to what extent. Ultimately, if it keeps shedding its
insulation there won't be any left. You can expect a small amount of
shedding from just about any piece of down gear and it will go on
working, but at some point you may well have lost enough to really dent
the performance.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel [phone] ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax [phone] Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK

Interesting,
don't think I've heard of a case where a down jacket, sleepingbag had lost
enough down feathers to not insulate...have you???
The good down products that I've seen are chambered.
TNF will repack down if you whine enough about it.
-tom

I've had it happen, but we're talking twenty year old coats that were worn
daily all winter, so I'm thinking I got my money's worth anyway...
Cricket

If it was TNF down jacket, they will pack it for free and probably be good
for another 20 yrs.
Our 27+ year old cat's meow spare sleeping bag (not a down),
zipper finally broke, TNF fixed it for free last year.
-tom

[Cricket]

Post by Tom Nakashima

Post by Cricket

Post by Tom Nakashima

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Tom Nakashima
Some people think if their jacket/vest sheds down feathers, it will lose
it's warmth. It's a myth.

It rather depends to what extent. Ultimately, if it keeps shedding its
insulation there won't be any left. You can expect a small amount of
shedding from just about any piece of down gear and it will go on
working, but at some point you may well have lost enough to really dent
the performance.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel [phone] ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax [phone] Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK

Interesting,
don't think I've heard of a case where a down jacket, sleepingbag had lost
enough down feathers to not insulate...have you???
The good down products that I've seen are chambered.
TNF will repack down if you whine enough about it.
-tom

I've had it happen, but we're talking twenty year old coats that were
worn daily all winter, so I'm thinking I got my money's worth anyway...
Cricket

If it was TNF down jacket, they will pack it for free and probably be good
for another 20 yrs.
Our 27+ year old cat's meow spare sleeping bag (not a down),
zipper finally broke, TNF fixed it for free last year.
-tom

A Gerry - and I finally tossed it, 'cause it got left in someone's feeder
cattle barn, and when I got it back it stunk so bad I burned it.

I'm thinking even if Gerry had as good a guarantee as TNF, they might not
have been too happy to recieve that one!

;>D

Cricket

[Tom Nakashima]

Post by Cricket

Post by Tom Nakashima

Post by Cricket

Post by Tom Nakashima

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Tom Nakashima
Some people think if their jacket/vest sheds down feathers, it will lose
it's warmth. It's a myth.

It rather depends to what extent. Ultimately, if it keeps shedding its
insulation there won't be any left. You can expect a small amount of
shedding from just about any piece of down gear and it will go on
working, but at some point you may well have lost enough to really dent
the performance.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel [phone] ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax [phone] Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK

Interesting,
don't think I've heard of a case where a down jacket, sleepingbag had lost
enough down feathers to not insulate...have you???
The good down products that I've seen are chambered.
TNF will repack down if you whine enough about it.
-tom

I've had it happen, but we're talking twenty year old coats that were
worn daily all winter, so I'm thinking I got my money's worth anyway...
Cricket

If it was TNF down jacket, they will pack it for free and probably be good
for another 20 yrs.
Our 27+ year old cat's meow spare sleeping bag (not a down),
zipper finally broke, TNF fixed it for free last year.
-tom

A Gerry - and I finally tossed it, 'cause it got left in someone's feeder
cattle barn, and when I got it back it stunk so bad I burned it.
I'm thinking even if Gerry had as good a guarantee as TNF, they might not
have been too happy to recieve that one!
;>D
Cricket

Pretty funny, so you burned it.
-tom

[Cricket]

Post by Tom Nakashima

Post by Cricket
A Gerry - and I finally tossed it, 'cause it got left in someone's feeder
cattle barn, and when I got it back it stunk so bad I burned it.
I'm thinking even if Gerry had as good a guarantee as TNF, they might not
have been too happy to recieve that one!
;>D
Cricket

Pretty funny, so you burned it.
-tom

Oh, and I forgot the best part...when I bought it, I'd never dealt with down
stuff before, except army surplus. So I had no idea how much it should
cost. The tag said $26...next time I was in the store, I saw the vests
labeled $26, the coats were, don't remember, a whole bunch more...

Probably a truly virtuous person would have said something, but I was a
starving student, in the early seventies, and figured somebody up there
really wanted me to have that coat. It was five or six years ago, I think,
that I finally trashed it.

So I doubly (or maybe triple-y) got my money's worth!

Cricket

[Peter Clinch]

Post by Tom Nakashima
Interesting,
don't think I've heard of a case where a down jacket, sleepingbag had lost
enough down feathers to not insulate...have you???

To insulate /less/, certainly. Or if losing 5% of the filling over time
didn't make any real difference,, why not just leave it out in the first
place and reduce weight and cost of filling by 5%?

Pete.

[Tom Nakashima]

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Tom Nakashima
Interesting,
don't think I've heard of a case where a down jacket, sleepingbag had lost
enough down feathers to not insulate...have you???

To insulate /less/, certainly. Or if losing 5% of the filling over time
didn't make any real difference,, why not just leave it out in the first
place and reduce weight and cost of filling by 5%?
Pete.

Why only 5%?, why not 10% and make it exceptionally light...don't really
see your point?
I'm sure TNF like other down product co. have their tolerances for fill.
The last time I've checked, there wasn't an "industry standard" for rating
down
products, there might be one now?
Each co. had their own rating, so -20 degrees we would take their word for
it.
I've seen some pretty thin filled down jacket/vest in stores.
-tom

[Peter Clinch]

Post by Tom Nakashima
Why only 5%?, why not 10% and make it exceptionally light...don't really
see your point?

My point being you can't get rid of stuff that does useful work and
expect that work to be done by the nothing that replaces it. So why not
save 50% of the filling? Answer: because it won't work as well. And
nor will 95%, or 90%.

Post by Tom Nakashima
The last time I've checked, there wasn't an "industry standard" for rating
down products, there might be one now?

It depends what you're rating, but in the EU there are now rather more
stringent things coming online for sleeping bag rating.

Post by Tom Nakashima
Each co. had their own rating, so -20 degrees we would take their word for
it.

"Their own ratings" were all a bit variable, IME.

Post by Tom Nakashima
I've seen some pretty thin filled down jacket/vest in stores.

So have I, and they work very well at some temperatures. Mine is
designed for nothing much worse than a few degrees below zero, which is
what we'd expect in Scotland, and is pretty thin. The same company make
alternatives with more down which are thicker filled and much warmer,
but heavier, more expensive and bulkier to store: more is not always better.

Pete.

[Tom Nakashima]

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Tom Nakashima
Why only 5%?, why not 10% and make it exceptionally light...don't really
see your point?

My point being you can't get rid of stuff that does useful work and
expect that work to be done by the nothing that replaces it. So why not
save 50% of the filling? Answer: because it won't work as well. And
nor will 95%, or 90%.

90% might work well at 72 degrees F.

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Tom Nakashima
The last time I've checked, there wasn't an "industry standard" for rating
down products, there might be one now?

It depends what you're rating, but in the EU there are now rather more
stringent things coming online for sleeping bag rating.

Post by Tom Nakashima
Each co. had their own rating, so -20 degrees we would take their word for
it.

"Their own ratings" were all a bit variable, IME.

Just have to take their word for it, as I said in a previous post.

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Tom Nakashima
I've seen some pretty thin filled down jacket/vest in stores.

So have I, and they work very well at some temperatures. Mine is
designed for nothing much worse than a few degrees below zero, which is
what we'd expect in Scotland, and is pretty thin. The same company make
alternatives with more down which are thicker filled and much warmer,
but heavier, more expensive and bulkier to store: more is not always better.
Pete.

Sort of puts a spin on your answer: "because it won't work as well."
-tom

[Peter Clinch]

Post by Tom Nakashima
Sort of puts a spin on your answer: "because it won't work as well."

Which was rather the point. If you lose insulation then it won't work
as well as an insulator. Not exactly rocket science, is it?

Pete.

[GregS]

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Tom Nakashima
Sort of puts a spin on your answer: "because it won't work as well."

Which was rather the point. If you lose insulation then it won't work
as well as an insulator. Not exactly rocket science, is it?

A little loss in Down could likely open up gaps between the layers from settling unless
the loft is kept up.

The big question is, how many feathers are there in a typical jacket.

Maybe I can count the ones in a pillow ??

greg

[Cricket]

Post by GregS

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Tom Nakashima
Sort of puts a spin on your answer: "because it won't work as well."

Which was rather the point. If you lose insulation then it won't work
as well as an insulator. Not exactly rocket science, is it?

A little loss in Down could likely open up gaps between the layers from settling unless
the loft is kept up.
The big question is, how many feathers are there in a typical jacket.
Maybe I can count the ones in a pillow ??
greg

You got *way* too much time on your hands... <grin>

Cricket

[Tom Nakashima]

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Tom Nakashima
Sort of puts a spin on your answer: "because it won't work as well."

Which was rather the point. If you lose insulation then it won't work
as well as an insulator. Not exactly rocket science, is it?
Pete.

Post by Tom Nakashima
: more is not always better.
Pete.

So which is it?
-tom

[Peter Clinch]

Post by Tom Nakashima

Post by Peter Clinch
Which was rather the point. If you lose insulation then it won't work
as well as an insulator. Not exactly rocket science, is it?

Post by Peter Clinch
: more is not always better.

So which is it?

It's you completely missing the point that there's more than one point:
viz...

Point 1: If a garment loses insulation it will lose its ability to
insulate as effectively as it once did.

Point 2: When specifying a garment to insulate in the first place one
should account for how much insulation one actually needs and buy
appropriately, rather than assuming the warmest coat must be the best.
The warmest coats are for standing around in extreme cold (say, around
the -40 mark) not doing very much. Such a coat would be very little use
to a lot of people, cost a fortune and be a lot heavier and bulkier than
more suitable alternatives, so in that case the extra down would be a
hindrance rather than a help.

Pete.

[Tom Nakashima]

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Tom Nakashima

Post by Peter Clinch
Which was rather the point. If you lose insulation then it won't work
as well as an insulator. Not exactly rocket science, is it?

Post by Peter Clinch
: more is not always better.

So which is it?

viz...
Point 1: If a garment loses insulation it will lose its ability to
insulate as effectively as it once did.
Point 2: When specifying a garment to insulate in the first place one
should account for how much insulation one actually needs and buy
appropriately, rather than assuming the warmest coat must be the best.
The warmest coats are for standing around in extreme cold (say, around
the -40 mark) not doing very much. Such a coat would be very little use
to a lot of people, cost a fortune and be a lot heavier and bulkier than
more suitable alternatives, so in that case the extra down would be a
hindrance rather than a help.
Pete.

I understood the two points well, just wasn't sure if you were tying
them together.
-tom

[GregS]

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Tom Nakashima
Interesting,
don't think I've heard of a case where a down jacket, sleepingbag had lost
enough down feathers to not insulate...have you???

To insulate /less/, certainly. Or if losing 5% of the filling over time
didn't make any real difference,, why not just leave it out in the first
place and reduce weight and cost of filling by 5%?
Pete.

The main problem I see is not feathers comming out. Its clumping when
the feathers settle downward forming a clump at whatevers holding
them up. Same thing with a pillow. Got to shake it up once in
a while. Polyester does not settle near as much.

greg

[Tom Nakashima]

Post by GregS

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Tom Nakashima
Interesting,
don't think I've heard of a case where a down jacket, sleepingbag had lost
enough down feathers to not insulate...have you???

To insulate /less/, certainly. Or if losing 5% of the filling over time
didn't make any real difference,, why not just leave it out in the first
place and reduce weight and cost of filling by 5%?
Pete.

The main problem I see is not feathers comming out. Its clumping when
the feathers settle downward forming a clump at whatevers holding
them up. Same thing with a pillow. Got to shake it up once in
a while. Polyester does not settle near as much.
greg

Greg,
as I said in a previous posts to this thread, some of the down jackets/vest
sleeping bags are chambered.
Chambering helps prevents the clumping of the down feathers.
-tom

[GregS]

Post by Tom Nakashima

Post by GregS

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Tom Nakashima
Interesting,
don't think I've heard of a case where a down jacket, sleepingbag had lost
enough down feathers to not insulate...have you???

To insulate /less/, certainly. Or if losing 5% of the filling over time
didn't make any real difference,, why not just leave it out in the first
place and reduce weight and cost of filling by 5%?
Pete.

The main problem I see is not feathers comming out. Its clumping when
the feathers settle downward forming a clump at whatevers holding
them up. Same thing with a pillow. Got to shake it up once in
a while. Polyester does not settle near as much.
greg

Greg,
as I said in a previous posts to this thread, some of the down jackets/vest
sleeping bags are chambered.
Chambering helps prevents the clumping of the down feathers.
-tom

Yes, I have something like that, but the chambers are not all that small.
The smaller the better, but if you have a saem, you have no insulation
at the seam.

greg

[Tom Nakashima]

Post by GregS

Post by Tom Nakashima

Post by GregS

Post by Peter Clinch

Post by Tom Nakashima
Interesting,
don't think I've heard of a case where a down jacket, sleepingbag had lost
enough down feathers to not insulate...have you???

To insulate /less/, certainly. Or if losing 5% of the filling over time
didn't make any real difference,, why not just leave it out in the first
place and reduce weight and cost of filling by 5%?
Pete.

The main problem I see is not feathers comming out. Its clumping when
the feathers settle downward forming a clump at whatevers holding
them up. Same thing with a pillow. Got to shake it up once in
a while. Polyester does not settle near as much.
greg

Greg,
as I said in a previous posts to this thread, some of the down
jackets/vest
sleeping bags are chambered.
Chambering helps prevents the clumping of the down feathers.
-tom

Yes, I have something like that, but the chambers are not all that small.
The smaller the better, but if you have a saem, you have no insulation
at the seam.
greg

Well you had the right idea of shaking to fluff the down.
Both my down TNF vest and my Western Mountaineering Bag are chambered and
fluff full when I give it a light shake.

I've seen some poor quality down that doesn't fluff when shaken.

Here's a good example of a chambered down vest by Western Mountaineering:
http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Jackets%20%26%20Vests
-tom

[ACAR]

Post by GregS

Pete.

The main problem I see is not feathers comming out. Its clumping when
the feathers settle downward forming a clump at whatevers holding
them up. Same thing with a pillow. Got to shake it up once in
a while. Polyester does not settle near as much.
greg

Clumping: as you say baffling or seams are needed but poor quality
down tends to "clump" more;

from the Feathered Friends FAQ;
http://www.featheredfriends.com/customer_service/faqs.aspx

Goose Down Insulation

Our goal is to make products of the highest quality possible. Higher
fill power down saves you weight and has a longer life than lower
quality, low fill power downs. Carefully sorted, processed and washed,
it has minimum breakage and retains the naturally occuring oils which
protect it from moisture. The harsh washing and mechanized sorting
methods often used for down of lesser quality can damage the down and
strip it of natural oils. Furthermore, most down is a by-product of
geese raised for food; it comes from young, undeveloped birds. Only
breeder birds kept alive from year to year provide mature, fully
developed down. Down becomes stronger and loftier as geese mature,
increasing its volume to weight ratio as the down clusters increase in
size. This mature down constitutes only a tiny percentage of the down
available, demanding a higher price and coming in limited quantities.
Wholesalers sometimes use this "mixing stock" to raise the fill power
of lower quality machine-sorted downs. All our bags and come standard
with 850+ fill goose down which meet our stringent quality standards,
tested by our supplier and by an independent certified lab for fill
power, composition and purity.

[a***@gmail.com]

You could always add a liner. Find someone that can sew and have them make and sew in a liner. Or find a lightweight nylon or waterproof jacket to wear under it to keep your feathers from attaching to your clothes. All down coats leak, it is not a cost factor, it's the fact that feathers have sharp ends and can work their way through most fabric. Using a plastic type fabric like a raincoat would be almost impossible for a feather to penetrate.

[h***@juno.com]

Post by a***@gmail.com
You could always add a liner. Find someone that can sew and have them make and sew in a liner. Or find a lightweight nylon or waterproof jacket to wear under it to keep your feathers from attaching to your clothes. All down coats leak, it is not a cost factor, it's the fact that feathers have sharp ends and can work their way through most fabric. Using a plastic type fabric like a raincoat would be almost impossible for a feather to penetrate.

Well, it's sort of nice to see some activity on this board but you're replying to a post over seven years old. Little chance the poster will read your reply.

[rick++]

Its common for birdies to molt in the springtime :-)